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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 452
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: True, with an added spin... |
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Rich... I overheard one idea that was very curious. You mentioned the words "seize control and monopolize"... Added to the layer of this oil mess is that Iraq had HUGE, HUGE multi-billion dollar contracts with the French and Russians, and was dealing in Euro dollars, not US Dollars.
So another view was that Iraq, having been propped up in the beginning by the United States, and then "survived" by the United States in the first Gulf War, was doing everything to support America's economic competitors, France and Russia. How dare Hussein show this ingratitude!
I have to believe there was s o m e truth to the possibility that Iraq was also supporting the North Koreans in their nuclear program, who were also supporting the Iranians with missles and such... so I am going to give the Bush-clan a pass on the WMD stories... they may have been indirectly true.
Oil and economics and control. Not freedom and democracy.
Bush has announced a $1 Billion dollar investment for alternative energies, and reiterated his alternative energies at the G8 Summit.
$1 Billion total, for research and development on: fuel cell and wind power, and solar power technology; against 1 trillion dollars spent for maintaining the oil "culture"...not a realistic balanced effort.
Your thoughts?
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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1640
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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And, Bush left the G-8 summit with a flat "no" on joining the Kyoto Accord, citing the fact that neither China nor India were in, and noting potential harm "to America's economy" (as if we couldn't afford to do the right thing) -- these are not new positions for him, unfortunately -- leaving the summit to make the pathetic statement that "room was left open for a possible return to dialog on the matter in the future" or words to that effect. Pretty sad. . .
SDR
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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yes, I have heard a lot of talk about it being a question of oil-trading rather than the oil itself.
not so much the Euro - even though this has become more favoured as a currency as the dollar has been hit. Very confusing because the dollar has been under deliberate attack around the world.
seems that the attack, though I am far from an expert on this, has more to do with the strange role of the Fed, rather than America itself. There has been talk about various petro-currencies.
Saddam did have a nuclear programme, just as he had a WMD programme, but he dismantled them many years ago. The link - on the illicit side - is apparently through Pakistan. The legal side is the Russians. What is not said very loudly about the Iranian programme is that the Russians, who are building it, had said that they would take full control of the nuclear material themselves.
Saddam was helped by over twenty countries at one time or another - he was the Wests, and certainly Americas friend during the Iraq-Iran war. Nasty man he may have been, but he was neither a terrorist nor a threat to the west - ever.
The most disgraceful part was the forged evidence about Iraq-Niger uranium trading. That was just a lie. And El-Baradai in his report to the UN made it clear that there had been an attempt to deceive the weapons inspectors. That attempt was by Britain and America.
Even with the move away from petro-dollars, none of the arguments for attacking Iraq makes sense.
I do wonder if this really was a sort of Dr Strangelove scenario. The freaky element in the Pentagon and elsewhere dream up endless notions of threats and counter-threats all the time, and perhaps 9.11 just fitted in with one of their paranoid ideas. After all, Rummy was calling for an attack on Iraq within a day or two of 9.11.
In other words, the attack on Iraq was a monumental blunder.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1640
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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If you're a professional war-leader -- a ghoul, in other words -- what do you live for?
WAR.
"Defense," my ___.
SDR
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"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
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the London police are now saying that the bombers were British Muslims - young lads from Leeds.
there is a precedent for the London attacks.
in 1938 the Nazis rounded up thousands of Jews and drove them across the border with Poland. The Poles refused to accept them and they were left stranded in terrible conditions.
one young lad heard that his parents were among those Jews. He was in Paris. He got hold of a gun, went to the German Embassy in Paris and shot the Third Secretary, vom Rath.
that resulted directly in what became known as the Night of Broken Glass - a nationwide pogrom against the Jews of Germany.
listening to Blair and his gang one cannot but be reminded of Goebbels shrieking about the risk to German blood and honour and saying that of course it was nothing to do with the Jews. Winking at his delighted audience.
Blair and his gang say that of course there must not be any anti-Muslim behaviour. Wink, wink.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 452
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:46 am Post subject: Few ??? days after 9-11? NO. After election! |
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Rich... the Iraq attack was not planned a few days after 9-11. I think the Downing memo stated that Iraqi invasion plans were drawn up a few days after the ELECTION of Bush! Or maybe it was just speculation?
The Dr. Strangelove scenario for me is the un-thinkable diabolical question... did our people allow the bad guys in-country to plan and carryout their mischief, whatever it turned out to be... to give the excuse for an Afghani and Iraqi invasion?
Side notes of history...I had a female mother in-law who was a resident of Pearl City, Hawaii, who was evacuated along with 300 Navy Dependents with 6 hours notice on December 5, 1941, because they were plausibly expecting an invasion of the Hawaiin islands! At the same time, the second largest Nazi party in the world was the American Bund! So what is the truth anymore?
And wasn't Churchill tipped off of the bombing of Coventry, but did not evacuate because that would reveal the intercepts were being decoded!
History is full of deception...With all this double-dealing, double crossing, spy versus spy, we are left with one truth mentioned in this thread by someone... Dependency on oil means history will repeat and repeat and repeat. And that includes terror strikes.
And of course, no single person is getting the full story. So is Bush entirely to blame, no I don't think so. Take away Bush and Rove, the problems still remain.
My crazy opinion... Put all Americans on Saturn, put all non-middle-easterners on Neptune, and what would you have? Tribal war, tribal war, tribal war. The middle east has been a cauldron of war and politics and various religions, for 15,000 years.
What is your opinion, is there a solution?
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SDR
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Actual or perveived threat to sources of supply
+ xenophobia
+ greed
x political and religious mis-leadership (for a variety of reasons)
= perpetual war.
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"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Richard Haut
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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George Galloway on the London bombings, from the British House of Commons:
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=821
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 452
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:20 am Post subject: Rich... Galloway's Miracle prose... will be ignored |
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Rich... his speech is a song of truth, isn't it, and the world will ignore it, I am sure.
The voice of reason is drowned out. This speech never made America.
Thanks for sharing.
EdZ
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Ed
it never really made it in Britain either.
the first Muslim has been beaten to death by a mob in the British town of Nottingham with the hooloigans yelling Taleban and other unnamed words. The Muslim was just an ordinary man going to buy something in a shop.
and now we hear that the identity and credit cards of all four alleged attackers survived the blasts. Really ? Plastic survived being next to a highly advanced explosive which was so devastating that most of the victims can only be identified from DNA or dental records ?
George Galloway is a brave man. In Britain he speaks to a nation that chooses not to listen.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 452
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: Changes are happening since yesterday... |
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Rich and SDR... we had a Sikh beat up on our side, though maybe not related to the London strike, or maybe it WAS related. Accused him of being a Taliban or something... and he wasn't Muslim at all.
But balance that idiocy with the carnage in Iraq, with all those children slaughtered yesterday, 17 kids, 10 adults including one American killed. Senseless to you and me.
In the last 48 hours, the United States announced that it will be pulling out of certain cities, and withdrawing ??? 100,000 troops by next summer.
Nobody "wins", of course, but it is a start. Something tells me that withdrawing American troops from Iraq, means consolidating for another round, somewhere else. The beehive is buzzing.
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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This is becoming fascinating to watch - not because of where the NeoCon freaks and friends succeed, but where they fail.
It is now being said that there were no suicide bombers in London. Those carrying the bombs had been tricked.
The Egyptians have apparently refused to hand over the Egyptian biochemist accused by the British because they say that he has no link to Al-Queda.
The response from Blair ? there is no Al-Queda. Fox News quotes him as saying that Al Queda is not an organisation.
The real question is who tricked these ordinary - and from increasing reports - decent individuals into carrying bombs ? There was a so-called security operation going on in London at the time - at the identical places and identical times that the bombs went off. Identical places. Identical times.
It is for the people of Britain and America to reject the Nazi-style racial stereotyping of Muslims. For Hitler, there was a strong streak of antisemitism already existing in Germany - and positively rampant in Austria. Racism is widespread in Britain - but open persecution and murder within Britains borders are out of line with British history and British culture.
The weak point in Bush and Blairs strategy may be that, while they ape the Nazis, they do not have the fundamental support that Hitler had. Indeed Hitler had a genius for understanding how his audiences felt and would react.
Bush and Blair have displayed total contempt for the people of their own countries - and when considering who is corrupt enough to arrange attacks on Londoners, they have to be in the line-up with any other suspects.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 452
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: Problem predates Bush and Blair |
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http://www.brunei-online.com/bb/fri/jul22w35.htm
The above website highlights an Arabic country's carrying of the Mayor of London, and his views on the causes of the London's bombing.
Although I don't know all the facts, I certainly agree with the basic premise of the Mayor of London, and cannot argue with the posters in this thread.
I have personal knowledge of historical events tieing foreign policy catastrophies carried on long before Bush and Blair were in politics, that had devastating consequences for the whole world, and limited profit for the United States.
I suspect I would be questioned and probably arrested for what I know to be absolute, positive fact and truth, the rest of the world chooses to ignore, or simply has not been told. I have to keep my mouth shut.
America, as great as it is (or was), as great as it could be, has made catastrophic foreign policy decisions, even before Blair and Bush were born, that are being manifested today.
Frankenstien Foreign Policy: Build Monsters, then Kill the same Monsters
Having said all that, and not saying what I really want to say, or not rehashing the HORRIFIC associations America has aligned itself with in the past including OBL and Saddam Hussein and Noriega and Samoza and Pinochet and Stalin... Bush and Blair are not the crux of the problem!
As disastrous as the Iraq situation is, and beyond the sad possibility that America is momentarily increasing the problem... the problem is not Bush and Blair!
If Bush and Blair had never been born, I think the world would be at the exact same spot, in the exact same predicament!
What kind of animalistic behaviour allows the killing of men, women, and children? I am talking about the London bombers, the Bali bombers, the Moscow bombers, and yes, capitalist foreign policy, only to name a few!
The world cannot survive crushing our neighbors today, or killing, or sanctioning, or crippling them financially, or starving them economically, or experimenting on third world children with monkey antibodies, or torturing prisoners, or altering the chemical makeup of our food and water, or talking Democracy and practicing Dictatorship.
Who is doing this? Everybody.
Common Sense, please!
There are major CONSEQUENCES for all of our actions!
Does that make me a communist for saying that? Does that make
me unpatriotic to ask for SANITY in our decision-making?
If nothing else, God Bless Tony Blair for TRYING to do something!
Would the world rather have a total anarchy-Rawanda situation, where killing went unchecked?
God Bless the English people, the Iraqi people, the Shia, the Sunni, all people all over the world.
God Bless Tony Blair.
Mr. Bush... you have work to do, and if you are trying to do "the right thing", I think you ought to re-assess your actions.
Is this what Democracy meant? Chaos? God Bless you too, if you are trying, but the opposite is the result, I fear.
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1099
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Ed
I can only admire your wish for a return to reason - for common sense and an acceptance of responsibility for our own actions.
However, what Blair is doing is inciting hatred. True that he and Bush are not the whole problem by any means, but they are the willing executioners, the individuals who occupy high positions of trust in their nations - and have shown themselves to be treacherous to their own people.
Chaos would indeed appear to be the aim of what is being done - the intentions of Bush, Blair, their backers, and bin Laden and his backers coincide.
The Iraqis themselves investigated the bombing of a week or so ago in which over 30 children were killed - witness statements, checking the scene of the crime, gathering evidence.
Americans can find out for themselves what was shown.
You have created a monster that you cannot kill, an imaginary enemy - Britain and America have nobody to surrender to.
"Suppose that they gave a war and nobody came
- why, then the war would come to them"
-Berthold Brecht
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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dgt
Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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I believe it is comforting to push all the blame toward Bush and Blair. At least for the so called 'liberals' (which incidently are anyone who disagrees with the administration now).
The word liberal used to mean something. But now anything which does not tow the party line or even is in slight contrast is demonized as leftist or liberal.
Bush and Blair are not the problem. Bush, however has taken advantage of the current state of affairs to push an agenda that is brutal, antagonistic and ultimately self-defeating. The two main reasons I believe it has been allowed to happen is; #1 because Bush gave the public an enemy here (liberals as unpatriotic and attempting to make the U.S. less safe) and abroad (Al-Qeuda, Taliban, Iraq and still to come Syria, Iran and North Korea). #2 the need for an enemy after 911, the need to blame someone, the need for revenge.
After 911 there was one of the greatest opportunities for global unity in the face of hardship. The U.S. has squandered it.
Bush is responsible for turning the corner in a sequence of events that led to this outcome rather than a more peaceful solution and lying, cheating and killing to get there. Blair is the accomplice. I hope that people do not forget that just by the nature of their respective offices they are the ones to be held accountable.
Then you must deal with the core of which Bush and Blair are only the extreme symptoms of...specifically the state of society which is prone to look for answers in racism, hatred and persocution.
Hopefully the tide is turning. In the Plame investigation a new poll suggests that more than 70% of americans believe the administration is hiding something or outright lying. Here is the link:
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/03/opinion/polls/main713832.shtml
-dgt |
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