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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: Americans shoot released hostage |
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The Italian Government has summoned the US Ambassador.
Within moments of being released by her captors, the released hostage Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was shot at by US troops. The only reason that she survived with minor wounds was that her body was covered by an Italian specal agent who was killed by US fire.
Italian President Silvio Berlusconi said that someone will have to take responsibility.
Perhaps the massive anti-war movement in Italy will at last persuade Berlusconi to bring the Italian troops home.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Kevin
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Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 1095
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Explanations and accusations will swirl. Whatever those are, as one U.S. citizen I am ashamed for this action by my country's military, however much driven by pure error, policy, or plan.
The symbolism, of an Italian journalist, terrified but released unharmed by her kidnappers, then wounded by the US on her way to the airport, with one of her experienced protectors killed, is devastating.
I am very glad that Giuliana Sgrena has survived through. |
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Architorture
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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so far every report has stated that the soldiers at the checkpoint attempted to stop the vehicle in everyway before firing upon it...
it is a horrible event to take place, but who ever was driving the vehicle should have known to stop for a US checkpoint...what would make them think they could just drive through? they hadn't given any foreword to the checkpoint that they were on their way...and so far there is no indication that they were being pursued or were in any sort of danger, so why did they not stop at a checkpoint that they obviously knew they were supposed to stop at?
it doesn't make any sense...journalists go through these checkpoints every day while moving through the city, why wouldn't they stop for one? you would think they had heard enough stories of iraqi civilians being gunned down at checkpoints to know what all the warning lights and hand motions meant.... so why did they continue to approach the checkpoint even though they were being warned??? |
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Sgrena herself has already shown that even the initial US military explanation is a lie.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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what is their explanation?
that the US soldiers knowingly opened fire without warning upon their vehicle?
they know how US checkpoints work...how were they mistaken for something other than a friendly vehicle?
obviously thousands of vehicles everyday go through US checkpoints without getting shot up...what were they doint that caused suspicion? |
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Architorture
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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well i just found the statement... according to her boyfriend it was an intentional ambush by the US soldiers upon the vehicle... well i guess that explains it right there...
she is a reporter of such utter importance that the US military planned an ambush for her vehicle so that she couldn't escape captivity and continue to be a reporter for il manefesto... that seems like a very reasonable and logical explanation of the events...
especially considering that the so called "ambush" ended as soon as the vehicle stopped...if the US military was out to kill her or others in the car you would think they would have shot at something other than the engine block...say maybe the occupants |
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Richard Haut
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I had heard that as well. She had been working on eyewitness reports of what had happened in Fallujah.
Your military apparently targetted doctors to stop them giving reports of what happened in Fallujah, so why not a reporter.
Whether the attempted assassination of Sgrena is true or not, I do not know - but with a force as dishonest and fond of murder as your military, you can understand the suspicion.
The question is whether or not Berlusconi and the Vatican believes it. Time for the Italian troops to be brought home. We wouldnt want any more friendly/unfriendly fire incidents, would we.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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well now her new statement is that there were no lights or anything, just sudden hail of gunfire... whereas her first statement was that there was a light shined on them...so which is it?
and now even she alleges that it was a coordinated and planned attack on her... if it was a planned ambush, why is she alive to talk about it? if they planned to kill her, why did she live?
why is anyone asking the question of whether or not she is trumping up her story some to sell her magazine? obviously all the stories are going to be exclusives for il manifesto...why not make the story a bit sensational even when it makes no sense at all... |
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Richard Haut
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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"trumping up her story some to sell her magazine"
your statement is offensive - and shows your ignorance of Italians.
What is beyond doubt is that she was shot, and a senior Italian officer killed by American troops.
A summary of the differing accounts, as described by the BBC:
US: Forces fired on a vehicle that was approaching at high speed
Troops attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots
When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block
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Sgrena: The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport
We were less than a kilometre [from the airport]... when... I remember there was shooting
The driver began screaming that we were Italian
We weren't going particularly fast given that type of situation
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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italians are incapable of being misleading?
she was not shot, she was hit by shrapnel...it may seem like a nuance, but if you support the 'ambush theory' it would be rather important...
and actually in the account that i saw from her she said quite clearly, that the driver wasn't even able to say they were italian...either b/c he couldn't speak english or wasn't able to for some other reason, they didn't say... but she did say he WASN'T able to say they were italian
what is "particularly fast considering the situation"? at that point is she talking about the situation with being recently released from captivity? or the situation of being fired upon by US soldiers?
i think it is the first...and she didn't say "we were traveling at the posted speed" she said "particularly fast for the situation" which seems to indicate they probably weren't going the usual speed you would on a city street...and if that is the case why were they speeding in the first place, they weren't being pursued they were no longer in any kind of danger, why the rush?
her story doesn't answer enough of the questions to support her theory that it was some sort of ambush aimed at killing her |
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Richard Haut
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: |
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blaming the victims, interesting display.
the bullets were in the body of the senior Italian security officer, the others who were hit, and sprayed around the car. Several hundred bullets.
the worst interpretation is that this was an attempted assassination - the kindest, that your troops are out of control.
the idea that an Italian communist newspaper and a journalist with the trackrecord of Sgrena would hype up the death of the person who gave his life to save her says nothing whatever about Italians, but it says one big mouthful about America today.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the idea that an Italian communist newspaper and a journalist with the trackrecord of Sgrena would hype up the death of the person who gave his life to save her says nothing whatever about Italians, but it says one big mouthful about America today |
You have tagged it with this statement....as it fits the template ...and one you'll hear today as this story gets played over and over and over. So Giuliana Sgrena wrote for a newspaper called "Il Manifesto." As you have mentioned, it's one of Italy's communist newspapers. Now hold on a second. I'm not saying that Sgrena got what she deserved because she writes for a communist newspaper. I am saying is that it would be illogical to expect either Sgrena or the newspaper she writes for to be at all sympathetic to the situation faced by our forces in Baghdad. Both Sgrena and her newspaper are adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq. Il Manifesto is already accusing U.S. Forces of assassinating the secret service agent, and her partner (whatever that means) says that the shooting was intentional. He referred to the U.S. troops as "imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone."
http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/
The funeral this morning for Calipari is going to be a focal point for expressions of hatred toward the U.S. and U.S. policy in Iraq. It will be a rallying point for those who long for the days of Saddam Hussein. If you're a news junkie you'll hear condemnation and criticism of the U.S. forces time after time throughout the day. It will be interesting if you see one single story about Sgrena's connection with a communist newspaper and their adamant opposition to what the U.S. has accomplished in Iraq. Why, you ask, is that important? It's important because this is a newspaper with strong anti-American credentials. It's not right to report the criticism heaped on the U.S. from a newspaper without identifying that newspaper's strongly anti-U.S. bias. |
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Architorture
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Richard Haut"]blaming the victims, interesting display.
[quote]
i'm not saying it is their fault that it happened... obviously blame lies with the soldiers for misidentifying the vehicle... i'm just curious what contribution was made on the victims part to lead to that misidentification...
unless of course you believe it to be an ambush in which case the soldier appropriates identified the vehicle, but failed miserably at completing their task... which is the one point i think ultimately disproves the ambush theory... if it was an ambush, no one would be alive right now taking about it... the headlines would read "freed italian journalist killed by captors while attempting to escape"
hundreds of bullets? have you actually seen emperical data on that? or is that just hyperbole from newspapers? the entire incident lasted only seconds and US forces are only capable of firing 3 rounds at a time... so either there was alot of soldiers firing or the incident lasted much longer than ANYONE is reporting |
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SDR
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Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Did this happen at a checkpoint where all vehicles were to be stopped? The report states that the US forces attempted to warn the rapidly approaching vehicle.
SDR |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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U.S. forces say that Sgrena's car approached a checkpoint on the Baghdad airport road without slowing, and the driver ignored repeated warnings to stop. The warnings reportedly included arm signals, bright flashing white lights, shots fired in front of the car and a shot into the engine block. One more thing. The U.S. Military says that they weren't warned in advance about the release of Sgrena and that she would be driven to the airport after that release. Why wasn't the U.S. told? Evidently the Italians were afraid that we might try to dissuade them from paying the ransom and might actually interfere in some way. So ... first mistake; not telling the U.S. Military that you are going to be making a run for the airport with a freed hostage.
Sgrena's story? She says there were no warnings, no bright lights. She says that they weren't even at a checkpoint. A U.S. tank just pulled along side and started firing. She also says they weren't speeding. Riigggghhhhhtttttt. A car full of Italians, and they weren't speeding? Dogs and cats sleeping together. |
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