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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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 Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Chris - Nice looking mandolin. Very Cool. I am guitar player myself with a small collection of electrics (couple of Fenders and a Charvel). I am currently looking to replace my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe - it goes from zero to ear-splitting. I am thinking of buying on old Silverface or Blackface Champ or Princeton Reverb.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | phansford wrote | Quote: | | A good business person is not providing the same service for $500 that they will provide for $5,000. |
Please explain how you can charge two drastically different prices for the same project.
What does the customer get by paying $4500 more?
Do you bring them milk and cookies while they look at the blueprints?
I don't understand.
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You don't....... 
I understand that is hard for you to listen to what I might have to say without the burning urge to make overly ridiculous comments. And everything has to be an argument for you or a chance to say degrading things.
Try reading the post again..............
| phansford wrote: | | Three things affect price - scope of services, schedule, and fee. If one changes - the other two change (or should). Therefore - if your fee changes, so should the scope of services. |
You don't charge different costs for the same project. And if someone's design budget is only $500, then they are NOT going to get the same services (Schematic Design, Construction Documentation, Bidding, Construction Administration) as someone who had more funds allocated for design. For $500, they might get some design consultation and some design sketches.
Quite honestly, someone with a $500 design budget should be looking into a plan service such as yours. They are not going get a custom designed home - from you, your associate, or me. And we have referred potential clients to those types of resources or to a builder who can provide minimal drawings for permitting purposes.
For us - its about serving the client and the project, which sometimes means we will not be involved in the project other than referring them to someone we think can service their needs.
No offense - but either you clearly don't understand the nature of the design business or you just want to be north end of a southbound moose.
I have to say.... my vote is for the latter. And based on your typical conduct here we couldn't see any reason to refer anyone to you or your plan service. I would gladly direct someone to Chris - in a heartbeat. (which probably surprises Chris) |
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starkca3
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: |
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sorry for being captain obvious here:
so essentially your saying its not necessarily the "quality" of the work as much as the "extent of the services" that corresponds to the price change. but i suppose some people could construe the "extent of services" to be "quality" in their minds.
i like the example, some sketches as opposed to full blue prints.
think i got it..... win 
basically i think some people out there want wal mart plans. where i guess thats where checkpoints business comes in right?
otherwise they get what they pay for.
again. captain obvious XD
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: |
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thanks phansford,
I am a converted guitar player. I have a really nice PRS that I don't play anymore and a Peavy duel two twelve that weighs a ton and I probably have never had the volume knob past half way.  Used to have a strat but I sold it. I find the mandolin a lot easier to play.
I guess I would say this you get what you pay for when dealing with a particular person. In other words one designer may offer different levels of service. I would certainly provide minimum service if that is what the customer wants (and often that is the case) -as long as they know what they are getting. Which is a minimum plan set which will be approved by the building department.
However, when dealing with multiple companies the old saying 'let the buyer beware' is more appropriate. Price and skill are only indirectly related. Many other things affect price.
I got that mando at a great price because the previous owner had probably fallen on hard times and had to raise some cash. An excellent architectural rendering artist is on another forum was just saying how most of his work has gone overseas. He may have to drastically lower his fees (standard of living) or get into another line of work. He is trying to find ways of providing new services and probably has been finding ways to increase his productivity.
What he can't do is lower the quality of work because he has to match his competition. Doing poor work would only drive him out of business sooner.
Unless his clients want a lower quality (example computer generated versus fine art) Maybe he has not adapted to the new technology?
I could have bought two new pacific rim made mandos for the price of this one used American made one. They are of equal quality, they just have a much lower standard of living over there.
I was watching Dan Rather the other night and he was doing a story on companies providing private prisons. One in west Texas was paying guards a starting salary of 14,000 dollars per year and no benefits. In relation to this 500 dollar plan sets may seem like good money.
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-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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For $500, you get Design and Documentation.
For $5000 you get Design, Documentaion, Bidding, and Construction Administration.
What is Bidding and Construction Administration, and why does that have a $4500 price?
And please don't call me the north end of a southbound moose.
I'm not asking questions to attack you. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| starkca3 wrote: | sorry for being captain obvious here:
so essentially your saying its not necessarily the "quality" of the work as much as the "extent of the services" that corresponds to the price change. but i suppose some people could construe the "extent of services" to be "quality" in their minds.
i like the example, some sketches as opposed to full blue prints.
think i got it..... win
basically i think some people out there want wal mart plans. where i guess thats where checkpoints business comes in right?
otherwise they get what they pay for.
again. captain obvious XD |
Exactly.... I still invest the same level of care in each project no matter the scope of services. However, being the hourly based service that architecture is, I can't provide full services for two similar projects, but give different and radical prices for each. How would I met my bills or feed my family 
There is a name for people who cut their prices below their costs..... unemployed. or worst - bankrupt.
Quality is subjective. And it could calculate into fee as you suggest. Certainly someone hiring Frank Lloyd Wright will pay more for his abilities (quality if you like) than hiring me. As an example - A low end Lexus costs more than a Avalon, even though they are both essentially the same car built by Toyota (that's an assumption on my part - before a car fanatic gets on here and proceeds to tell me everything different in each model  ) There is a perception of quality between the Lexus and the Toyota.
I lost a very nice project early in my career. My fee was 1/3 of the other architect. But the owner perceived a quality and experience associated with the other architect's fee they felt I did not have.... go figure... So now when I compete against that particular architect - I push my fee way up. Its called Marketing.
Quite honestly - pricing our services is really tough. What will the market bear, what is reasonable, what will cover my expenses, past projects, and so on. I use several methods to arrive at our fees.
In the end - I have to determine what is the return I want on my investment. People are asking us to invest in their projects. So what should my rate of return be?
As far as plans services - I like to think that someone who is interested in getting an architect designed house, but can't afford the fee, will be able to be served by a plans service. This was the business model that Jack Bloodgood, FAIA had when he started his plan service in the early 60's. I don't knock plans services in general. There is a market sector they serve. Hey - If I had the time - I might do a few standard plans myself. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Checkpoint43 wrote: | For $500, you get Design and Documentation.
For $5000 you get Design, Documentaion, Bidding, and Construction Administration.
What is Bidding and Construction Administration, and why does that have a $4500 price?
And please don't call me the north end of a southbound moose.
I'm not asking questions to attack you. |
Just throwing number out.... let's assume we're talking about a residential addition/renovation.
| phansford wrote: | | For $500, they might get some design consultation and some design sketches. |
For $5,000 you would get Schematic Design and Construction Documentation.
Chris - this is the Charvel I own... Fender purchased Charvel a while back and they just started doing a production model again. My candy tangerine is from the first production run
Last edited by phansford on Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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I really, really do not want to be a prison guard in west Texas making 5 dollars an hour and no benefits.
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-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I see.
The $500 is just for consultation (discussing the possible layout solutions) and the sketches which roughly convey the idea to the customer.
The actual design work (full blueprints, materials, etc.) costs close to $5000.
I had it all backwards.
And I feel like the north end of a southbound moose.
Thanks for your help. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Checkpoint43 wrote: | Oh, I see.
The $500 is just for consultation (discussing the possible layout solutions) and the sketches which roughly convey the idea to the customer.
The actual design work (full blueprints, materials, etc.) costs close to $5000.
I had it all backwards.
And I feel like the north end of a southbound moose.
Thanks for your help. |
Many times, we think we can only provide a bunch of drawings.
You certainly have built-up a knowledge base on residential design. If someone comes to your office but doesn't want a whole set of drawings, just some ideas about reconfiguring the kitchen area on one of your stock plans.... you can provide some trace paper sketch ideas that they can take to the builder for implementation. Do you really need to alter the drawings and reissue sets and so on... when a simple sketch will do.
I don't want to create a lot of busy work for myself.
This is where a LOT of architects get lost. They want to do everything rather than service the clients immediate needs. I have provided consultation for 2 hours at my billable rate to review someone's plans for their house to full drawings. More than once, the small project client has returned with larger projects knowing we want to service their project and not our egos |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | | I really, really do not want to be a prison guard in west Texas making 5 dollars an hour and no benefits. |
I don't want to work anywhere for $5/hr and no benefits
Minimum wage will be $7.25 in a few weeks..... at 2080 hours per work year - that's $15,080.00 annually. No thanks. |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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cool color, I like the natural maple neck.
Oh, I didn't hear that they where going to raise the minimum wage, that is a good thing! -sure took long enough
here's my PRS
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | cool color, I like the natural maple neck.
Oh, I didn't hear that they where going to raise the minimum wage, that is a good thing! -sure took long enough
here's my PRS
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Very nice......
FWIW - The Charvel Website |
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carmen
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 4
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: building |
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hello everybody,
I think the design is limite,it is difficult to said it's value , If they can design very good and you satisfy with them ,then i think it worth . So it is better to check his company first ,whether is a strong and trustness company .
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I am not the best ,but i will try my best ! |
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Jimbobidybone
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Derby, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Carmen, I think you've hit the nail on the head there to be fair. How can anyone judje the value of work purely on the cost, the facts are if you like what someone produces and you are happy with the cost would you have been any happier if you had paid more for the work?
I'll let you in on a little secret, I obviously have my own company, but I'm also contracted by a larger company to take on all of their Architectural work as a senior architectural technician, If the same client asks for a quote from me directly they will get a fair price based on how long I know the work will take me to complete, If they go to the company I'm contracted for the fee will be roughly 3 times what I would charge (bigger overheads and a more respectable name). The big question is who will be doing the work and to what level of detail, the fact is it will be me and the detail will be exactly the same.
So let me ask you guys a question.. Do you get what you pay for?
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James Pegg
Please check out my site www.jrpcad.co.uk. |
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