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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1534
Location: San Francisco
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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As one of our client's wishes is that his house survives a hurricane, perhaps we had better think in terms of minimal exposure to uplift forces. Ergo, goodbye, Frank Lloyd Wright.
The issue of how to build and maintain the house is an interesting one. Surely a cantilevered gallery surrounding the house could be built securely; window-washing catwalks are common on such structures. And the house could be constructed (assembled) nearer "shore" and pushed out on its frame. Furthermore, there are strategies available for assembling from within the footprint of the structure. . .
SDR |
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lekizz
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 954
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Window washing should hardly be a problem, simply fit windows that open inwards and, hey presto, you can clean them from the comfort of your lounge. I can't see how maintainance will be a great issue, as long as you use a robust finish to the exterior - considering the sea winds and salt air I presume RMP will be opting for 'robust'. Why couldn't a firmly secired ladder suffice for the occasional repair? Personally I get giddy painting my first floor window frames but I expect St Croix has a supply of brave repair operatives who don't mind heights  |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, a flurry of activity here tonight:
- birgco: once again, huge thanks... great find on the post-Whetten Geology. I'm reading it now. And, duh, it references the St. Croix university... another great resource. I'll have to visit them, next trip. Maybe a challenge and funding reward for the students, for geologically appropriate recommendations for footings.
- and, also a great idea to take rock samples. I almost did this on my last trip, but I wasn't sure that I had representative rock. I like your idea of digging around notional locations. And, you're right: if I'm going to landscape (or disturb the soil) it might be nice to know the soil composition (clay, sand, etc).
- mx2: 1:2 ratio just seems mighty steep to me. But, maybe that's just my lack of experience from living in Virginia.
- SDR: great photos; beautiful to me. I thought that was Frank Lloyd. I've visited Falling Water in PA... this LA home looks very similar.
- djswan: I kind of think of architecture styles like women.. they're all beautiful... some are just more beautiful than others.
- if I were still in my 20s or 30s I might opt for the labor-intensive, max-sense-of-reward approach. I certainly appreciate the art of working with wood; and the natural beauty of wood is hard to beat (for me). But, in my 50s and 60s I think I need to also consider the engineered-ease-of-use options also. For me, there is even an elegance to simple plastic furniture: it's cheap, functional, unpretentious, easy to manufacture and can be re-used when discarded.
SDR: yes, I thought some more about my concern about maintenance and construction. I realized that I could think of a platform that is bigger than the house (ie, the truss is sized for the platform, not just the house). That leaves room for a gallery around the house. The gallery is not cantilevered, it is secured to the truss. There might be 45deg truss members to pickup the gallery, to keep the verticals back, closer to shore.
lekizz: I agree that "window washing" is probably pretty straight forward. I'm sure that SDR was using the "window-washing" term as a general term. I think there are lots of maintenance issues that will come up: vents to the outside that get bird nests, wind damage to the exterior from 100 knot winds and debris, vines growing up the truss, onto the exterior walls, etc. I would be very nervous about trying to rely on my ability to anticipate all situations.
- you're right, it might be that there is another solution that involves ladders that ride a custom "gutter", or something like that. It should be considered.
- yes, I will certainly be hiring much younger folk to crawl around the roof and outside of the house. But, I wouldn't feel that much better about them falling 25 ft off of my house, in place of me. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| birgco wrote: | | Wise man once said, beauty is in eye of beholder. |
There is no wisdom in modern architecture. Pictures speak a thousand words. Just add oil.
Derek out
_________________
The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hey MX2,
I think I missed one of your earliest posts. I didn't realize (until now) that you're designing a house in Haiti. Yes, it sounds like you're facing exactly the same issues. I see your idea of the front fill containing the cistern and the septic tank. It beats having to dig these holes separately. And, yes, if these components are part of your "fill" then it seems that the retaining wall is not dealing with as much of an issue as if it were solid soil. (but, I'm still leaning towards the raised long-house on steel truss)
Generator I've already thought of. The Cruzans (term for St Croix locals) complain about power going out for days, not hours. So, you have to have a generator. Good idea to place it in an out-building to isolate the noise a bit.
Have you considered building two cisterns and two septic tanks side-by-side? It seems like it might give you immediate backup if one needed maintenance. I haven't heard of anyone doing this, but I'm wondering if it's practical. |
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birgco
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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djswan wrote:
| Quote: | | There is no wisdom in modern architecture. |
and yet... grasshopper.... if a wise man said,
beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
how can there be... no wisdom in modern architecture? |
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1534
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Is there a plausible scenario wherein a roof full of photo-voltaic cells would not supplant a generator ?
SDR |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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SDR,
Very interesting question. The roof has to collect water for drinking, so I think that limits the range of materials that can be on the roof. That doesn't necessarily rule out solar cells, but we'll have to be careful to check the materials for toxicity.
Being about 17 degrees off of the equator, we get about 12 hours of daylight, all year round.
Hmmmm... if the solar panel are not suitable for water collection, then that calls for a resources balancing calculation: I need drinking water, but I'd also like backup power. Can some proportion of the roof be used for power instead of water collection? |
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1534
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I can easily imagine the cells arrayed on a grid which allows water to pass through to the "pan" below. If the cells are tilted at 17 degrees (?) then the water would run off quite nicely. . .?
SDR
_________________
"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi SDR,
I think the issue is water that comes in contact with any portion of the solar cell structure (glass coating, sealants, support structure, etc). If those materials leach non-drinkable chemicals into the water, then I don't want to collect that water for drinking. I'm not saying that they WILL, just that it has to be looked into. Hmmm... I don't recall seeing many, if any, solar cells in St Croix.
Along a similar theme, I'm thinking about sky lights. With a long house along the south road, I'll get Sun on the side of the house where I don't want a lot of windows:
- with a long house, ALL rooms have a wall on the north side, facing the water
- it will be wonderful to have windows to the ocean and valley in ALL rooms
- but, I'm thinking that if I put windows on the south side of the house also, then I'll lose any sense of privacy in the house (remember that the house might only be 20 ft from the south road).
So, should I look into sky lights on the south roof to let some direct sunlight in? Otherwise, I was thinking of the Frank Lloyd Wright style of high narrow windows on the south side - you get light and privacy, but no view. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| birgco wrote: | djswan wrote:
| Quote: | | There is no wisdom in modern architecture. |
and yet... grasshopper.... if a wise man said,
beauty is in the eye of the beholder,
how can there be... no wisdom in modern architecture? |
Wisdom was replaced by the AIA and interior decorating and Home Depot. The dollar fell below 100 yen today. It's all a spiritual union.
Tradition left with wisdom.
I catch little flies with chopsticks.
Hmmmm, I really want to show off three letters at the end of my name.
_________________
The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1813
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: |
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EngRMP, everyone who builds cisterns mostly build just one, simply because of costs. But we lived in one house in Haiti that had two cisterns which was great for long periods of drought...and two small cisterns is better than one large becuse the larger ones are more prone to cracking and therefore leaking. Second point, about building in Haiti, 99% of construction on these steep mounatinsides are done with retaining walls and building partially on the cut side...it simply is more complex structurally to cantilever any structure, particularly when dealing with wind loads (hurricanes, etc). My suspicion is that it is more costly as well, but I simply don't know. Labor in Haiti is very cheap and therefore stacking CMU is the most cost effective. Any major structure in steel is highly skilled labor and typically requires importing laborers, who require high wages and benefits.
That said, I wanted to add to the photovotaic system discussion. One big problem in Haiti is the panels are prone to theft. Securing the panels are a big challenge. However, that said, the panels typically are elevated on brackets or stands. The roofing is flashed around this and your roof finish is applied just like any other roof. It's rare that one would place panels to cover the entire roof. You can get by with smaller panels and can even hide them to one side. The idea is to have a battery with an inverter. Not only power from the electric company can be stored, but so can power generated by the solar panels and the generator. If you have all four systems, you'd be looking pretty good. But ultimately, like everyone in Haiti, you have to accept and even embrace the idea of living "off the grid"...which is to say, open your windows (and doors during the day) for ventilation, and invest in candles. Battery powered tools is helpful as well. In the end, enjoying nature as it is presented is a general idea. But on occasion, electricity is nice to have. Just don't expect to run you referigerator 24/7. Buy your meat and ice cream daily...or every once in a while.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1534
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: |
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This is not a cantilever. . .
This is a (braced) cantilever
SDR |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks SDR,
OK... but... (I hate to nit pick, but I am an engineer)... at what point does something turn into a "cantilever":
- I understand (but thank you, I can't say I was positive) how the top picture would not be considered a cantilever. I'll say because there is a vertical support at the furthest point.
- so, if I took the furthest vertical support and pulled the bottom back towards the house (up hill) such that it was 10 degrees off of vertical, would it be considered a cantilever?
- if not, then how far back can I pull the bottom before if becomes a "cantilever"?
This is not just an academic exercise: I think that I'd prefer to bring the bottom of the vertical post that holds the outer walkway as far up the hill as possible, just for ease of construction. I may be looking at this wrong, and it may not really matter if it's vertical. Any thoughts? |
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1534
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Technically, the Wright example (which I have labeled "braced cantilever") would be a true cantilever only if that diagonal were removed. As I once heard it, a "safe" cantilever extends its unsupported portion no more than 1/3 of the total length of the beam. As you can see, if Wright's curious brace (why does it seem to be sniped to almost nothing at the bottom ?) were removed, his beam cantilevers about 2/3 of its length.
Your question remains unanswered -- by me. Anybody ?
SDR |
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