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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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 Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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For sure SDR, that's a dictionary definition... I think the disagreement was a little more subtle than that  |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1732
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Gosh mx2 I think I clearly agreed with that in previous posts. Where exactly are you reading from?
| Quote: | | I was pointing out is that architecture, when done correctly, is already a terrific deal and that architects should not be racing to undercut their values to meet the perceived demands of the marketplace. If architects don't uphold the artful end of the stick certainly no one else will. |
Yes I agree. Why would an architect want to do what I do anyway? They should be quite happy working with the few percent of people that like their work enough to spend the money. Architects get the most fun jobs and I am jealous of that.
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Chris Stewart
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Hah!!!
Today I'm trying to get a door elevations schedule drawing to co-ordinate with some door spreadsheet schedules, I'm late with retrospective details to allow block walls to sit in the right position over retaining walls that have been cast in the wrong position and it's all surrounded by vague threats and a sea of low level politics... interesting? Well, maybe... The school design I really want to get on with, guess when I'll be doing that?
For fun when I'm at home |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly,
Since architects do most commercial design you know what it is like in the trenches. I think you all should leave all that unskilled grunt work to us and concentrate on architecture instead.
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Chris Stewart
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I'm doing right now Chris: 06:39am, smoking a cigarillo and drinking strong Guatemalan Elephant coffee, listening to Pablo Casals play the cello and refining a spatial configuration that presently is manifested as boxes on a plan layout but is teasing into volumes of variously lit space in my head... and, of course, I'm totally loving it  |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I would like to go back to the subtleties of improvisation...my main concern is that this is essentially the underlying attitude for Post-Modernism...the aspect that one is so naturally talented that all they have to do is show up, be given the scope of work and start improvising, every damn time...and I'm pretty sure none of us with formal education have ever taken Improvisation-101. I am a firm beleiver in the marriage of art and science in Architecture and I will defend the intuitive nature of aesthetic design, however I am also a firm beleiver that all...including intuitive design, follows some form of methodology. Even Pollock knew better than to just close his eyes and throw random colors of paint up in the air...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Are you saying improvisation is a good thing or a bad thing here? What's it being contrasted with? I was previously thinking of improvisation in terms of a sophisticated, intuitive technique, but perhaps you're thinking of it as a more random form of arbitary willfulness? |
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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
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Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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The "rules" are there, when and if you need them. Much human endeavor has been expended on the identification of real or imaginary regulating lines, triangles of movement, golden rectangles, and systems of proportion. Modules of every imaginable sort have been employed, and there are volumes of (conflicting ?) examples of "the orders."
Creativity has been defined as the ability to synthecize new form, from existing elements.
The mind can perform feats of calculation on its own, and feats of synthesis as well -- if fed the appropriate information and then left alone for a bit. Much "perfect" art owes little if anything to the rules.
Did Corbu really lay out his facades according to regulating lines ? Did Palladio ? Do you ? Why ? Why not ?
SDR |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I feel it is inconsistent to laud improvisation while accepting any foundation-set of rules. True improvisation is akin to the Haitian folk art not-so-ironically-named "NAIVE" painting. There is no formal basis behind the painting techniques, composition or even technology. The painter simply decides to paint a scene with no understanding of 2D techniques or mediums and the result is quite beautiful, yet remarkably "naive". It's an very valuable art by the way.
But the notion that architecture is the same thing is ludicrous. To incorporate and schedule some "naive" experimentation at one point of the design process is one thing, but to pick a barber, a butcher or a candlestick-maker and have them start building a building would be true improvisation. Everything else is academic.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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SDR
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Certainly there will be a world of difference between the improvisations of untrained persons and the improvistions of those well-experienced in the particulars of their specialty. Joe Schmo can build a respectable garage with some help from Sunset magazine or Home Depot or his dad the carpenter, but it won't be the garage that even the greenest graduate grunt in a large (or small) architectural practice will attempt in his free time.
SDR |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| I was thinking 'yeah, it would be great to see a building in this fresh, naieve Haitian painterly style' then I thought a bit more... I suppose one difference between architecture and the more fluid subjective expressive artforms is the extent to which elemnts of quite different governing logics have to be combined into a coherent scenario: there is subjective judgement going on in the proportioning of openings in an elevation but even this is greatly affected by the constructional / structural logic of the thing as an edifice. One may wish to have a wild, wavy ceiling somewhere inside, but this can only be done if there's a corresponding lighting / services strategy that works in harmony with it. I still think improvisation is going on, but it's products have constantly to be checked and re-defined relative to what else is going on, with the net effect that the whole becomes quite tightly structured in the conceptual sense. |
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csintexas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Improvisation has nothing to do with the expertise of the musician or painter. A professional musician would have greater ability to improvise than an amateur. There is an underlying structure in everything we do.
Folk art shows us that anyone can be an artist.
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I think we’re finally getting somewhere. For once I agree with Chris, as he reminded me of another point about improvisation; it is not a term that describes THE process of music, but the singular moment and act of one person doing something “off-the-cuff”, as opposed to improvising music itself. In other words, there must be a clear distinction when speaking about improvisation and architecture within the same framework of music; ie. Architecture cannot be improvised, but parts of architecture ARE created though improvisation, if one even wants to use that word. It’s more commonly referred to as designing intuitively. Solidred makes a good explanation of this and this even fits in the scenario described by SDR. Do we (gulp)… have consensus?
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Posts: 1732
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Tell me it ain't so ma.... 
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Chris Stewart
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SDR
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Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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*well, shucks. . .*  |
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