|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
rltarch
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Dublin, Ohio
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
    |
|
But you've made my point for me quite nicely, don't you think? "If only the public were more educated, surely they'd want better design"...
Hmm, saving the world through Architecture...sounds like freshman year stuff. Isn't that how we got ourselves into this mess?
If you (and I mean, as before, Architects in general, not you personally whoever you are) want to see better-designed homes out there then build them! Or design better house plans and sell them. I've heard the education bit since 1977 and I don't see any improvement yet.
But don't blame the consumer. They don't know or care who Vitruvius was.
(And it's inculcate, not unculcate).
RLT
_________________
Residential Architecture Studio
Blog - Sense Of Place |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 829
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Stock plans vs Architecture |
|
|
| RSCarcht wrote: | | The striking thing is the would-be hoeowner is about to make the biggest investment of their life and undertake a journey (home construction) many have found frought with peril and is focussed totally on low price. This is like shopping south of the boarder for a heart transplant. Architecture is highly specific (local codes, specific site conditions, individaul programmatic needs, limited construction budgets) and is the exact opposite of a commodity. |
And here in lies the problem with the architectural profession as a whole. As rltrarch stated, the residential housing market is controlled by builders and developers. It is a commodity. Most home buyers think their purchase is an investment, not a work of art/architecture. HGTV is filled with programs such as "Flip this House", "How much is it worth", or whatever their names are..... 
You are confusing architecture with home construction. You can do that when your building in markets such as New York City. The clients who show up at your door are already educated or want to have an architect designed house. A young man who use to work for me now works for a firm in Manhattan doing high end residential on Nantucket.
Not to be showing favoritism to a fellow Miami grad, but I applaud guys like rltarch who are willing to wade into the fray. He seems to be doing some nice stuff and has a clear understanding of the residential industry. He is attempting to affect that portion of the market he is engaged, namely Central Ohio. BTW - I don't know Mr. Taylor and he doesn't know me.
We can only hope that people walk through a RT-designed home and decide to engage the services of a professional over purchasing the lastest model by some "hack builder".
The other issue is there are multiple budgets. I applaud someone who wants an architect-designed house, but can't afford an architect. A Plan service is a good place for them. (I will mention Jack Bloodgood for the millionth time). I like rlt's website addressing the purchase of home plans. I have glanced at it. He understands that folks with limited design budgets who still want a quality design can find that in a stock plan.
http://www.life.com/Life/dreamhouse/stern/stern.html
As shown in Dwell, there are now architects who are designing/selling pre-manufactured houses, albeit in the Modern vernacular. Is it wrong for people to want an architect-designed house and for them to purchase a pre-manufactured unit?
http://www.thedwellhome.com/
I would love to eliminate ugly houses. One way is to support multiple ways for people to get good design, whether its a custom designed home by an architect, or a pre-manufactured home, or a stock plan.
Then again, its all a matter of taste. Does my education really make me the Supreme Maker of Taste? Some people like McDonalds..... go figure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
I always enjoy a spirited debate.
As a former builder I would not mind if I never heard builders as a whole insulted again. It is very rude and unfair.
It is pretty easy to point fingers at others and blame them for things we think are wrong.
If architects want to talk about the average house they should try designing some first.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 829
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
CS - I feel your pain. I would love to see people stop bad mouthing architects in general. However there seems to be built-in prejudice from both sides, then toss in residential designers and draftsman. 
Unfortunely, there are bad seeds, poor performers, hacks, and so on in all aspects of our industry (design/constrution - the two are so interconnected we can't separate them). Its easy for us all to generalize.
I think we should all agree to hate........ Interior Designers
.... and the San Diego Padres. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MRBILL
Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Stock house plans |
|
|
| This topic has become something I never anticipated but it extremely helpful to me in deciding how to proceed with my future construction plans. I have found stock plans on the internet which are very appealing to me but require some modification in the interior design to meet all of my desires. It is my understanding that when one purchases a stock plan with reproduction rights the designer waives any copyright, allowing for modifications to be done by a local designer/architect. It does seem to me that I have misunderstood the difference between architects and resifdential designers and for that I apologize. It was always my understanding that any building design had to be approved by an architect. It seems now that this is not the case. I still have no idea of the costs associated with modifying the design I have selects, nor the time involved. I don't believe the modifications I want to make involve load bearing walls. Also, can I expect to receive a suggested materials list for construction or should I hand the design over to a local designed to determine the amount of particular materials I will need. The funny thing about this entire episode is that my father and grandfather were builders of custom homes. My father, however, left the business in the mid 50's when I was only 7 so I have no idea as to how the custom home or tract home builders operate. By nature I am a cynic which means I would prefer to keep particular tasks compartmented. Overall I believe this is the best way for me to proceed. I look forward to seeing more intercourse on this topic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
"Its easy for us all to generalize."
yes, I just did it in my post.
Of course some architects are designing average homes and have valuable ideas to contribute to that discussion.
"It is my understanding that when one purchases a stock plan with reproduction rights the designer waives any copyright, allowing for modifications to be done by a local designer/architect."
I would agree. The cost varies by location and the person doing the work.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 133
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OK, I just can't stay out of this one.....
I am a residential designer - or as some over-educated high amd mighty folks think..draftsman. I am not a full time designer, I design on my own time and do very well with it.
During the day, I design engineered floor systems (I-Joist floor systems) for residential applications. I am virtually in charge f making sure that the house does not fall in on itself..no matter who designs it.
Not only that, but I have worked with framing crews, owned a poured concrete wall company and have built several houses on my own.
I think I bring experience to the table along with a design capability that matches.
I have talked with many builders and General Contractors over the years and I always hear the same thing....
"Architects design aesthetically and not practically"...now this is not true of all architects, but for the most part OF WHAT I HAVE SEEN - it is true.
As an EWP (engineered wood product) designer, I see plans from architects and residential designers/drafters. I had much rather work on a plan that was designed by a RD than an architect. Simply put, i get better information from the plans and do not have to deal with rediculous nuisances that some one has added just to make a plan look pretty.
Further backing that "Architects design aesthetically", I ask...why has architecture been moved to the school of arts vs. the school of science? I checked into getting my architectural degree, and would always find the program listed under ARTS...not science.
Now, I am not arguing that residential designers are better than architects...nor am I arguing the opposite. I am stating, from experience, that I get better plans from a RD!!! Point Blank!!!
I think we all can agree that designing a home is no simple task. There are several things that have to be considered...my focus is how the house will be lived in and how I can design best to fit the family that will be living there.
How can I make things more livable...more useful....more family friendly - while at the same time, attempting to arrange things that create a design that is easy on the eyes. Or dare I say - aesthetically purdy.
I concentrate my eforts on the family and the builder. When a builder creates a masterpiece off of my plans, he has all the info he needs in front of him to complete the job..plus I make myself available - just in case.
Sections, details, all dimensions are right there in front of him. If I design something that might prove difficult to construct, I highlight this applocation so that I draw attention to it. I detail this area out to the best of my knowledge.
I even have read, on this site, where an aspiring architect spoke out and said, "I encourage all architects to stay from sizing structural members"...I was dumbfounded and had to ask..."Isn't that your job? Are you not supposed to present your customer with a buildable plan?"
And with that comment, I step back and listen to the be hive hummmmm..I know it is coming and I am prepared. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 829
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kmapro - nice to hear from you again. I am going to try to address some of your comments. And since you are looking for a fight, I am going to be quite curt in my response.
First of all, we all have our opinions and typically they are based on personal experience. Your type of rant has been done before and we don't need to hear or rehash it again. There are talented people and untalented people in all aspects of our industry. What's your point.
| kmapro wrote: | I am a residential designer - or as some over-educated high amd mighty folks think..draftsman. I am not a full time designer, I design on my own time and do very well with it.
During the day, I design engineered floor systems (I-Joist floor systems) for residential applications. I am virtually in charge f making sure that the house does not fall in on itself..no matter who designs it. |
Lets clarify what you do “during the day”. You create floor framing shop drawings for residential projects. You most likely use a computer program provided by the I-joist manufacturer (Trus-joist - GP- whoever). Using the computer program, you input data such as live load and dead load (which for residential projects is fixed and unchanging) and joist span. The progam will then provide you wilth a range of joist types and sizes to use for the particular application. You proably don’t get to select the final member because the contractor has told you he only wants to use 9 1/4” TJI’s so you use that even though the deflection may be greater than it should be and the floor will be bouncy. That is if you know what deflection is and the various mathematical formulas for calculating it.
You might be required to provided a floor plan. You either get the plan in a DWG format from the designer or draw it in yourself. The program will eventually print out a framing plan that for an additional charge, can be signed and sealed by a Professional Engineer.
Lets not have grand visions of ourselves. As far as I am concerned your work is as important as the guy providing the design/shop drawings for the kitchen cabinets. Important, but no more important than the next trade.
Lets state fact. It takes nearly 10 years of higher education and internship, plus you have to pass an rigourous test to hold the legal title and license of Professional Engineer, Registered Architect, Professional Land Surveyor, and Landscape Architect. So any ill-feelings you harbor towards a licensed professional seems like nothing more than jealousy. That or you don’t have the fortitude to put forth the hard work it takes to obtain Professional status. And moreover, VERY FEW architects do residential work.
| kmapro wrote: | | Not only that, but I have worked with framing crews, owned a poured concrete wall company and have built several houses on my own. |
You do not pour concrete, it is placed. Concrete is either cast-in-place or precast. How much do you really know if you don't know the proper terminology?
| kmapro wrote: | | I think I bring experience to the table along with a design capability that matches. |
No one here has seen your work and we can’t comment as to whether you are capable or not. This is strictly your opinion of yourself. And before you continue to run off your mouth you should review the work of rltarch and rscarcht. Their work in posted on their websites. It looks pretty nice to me and their clients must be happy with the work since it was built.
| kmapro wrote: | .I have talked with many builders and General Contractors over the years and I always hear the same thing....
"Architects design aesthetically and not practically"...now this is not true of all architects, but for the most part OF WHAT I HAVE SEEN - it is true. |
This is the standard bullsheet you hear from contractors. Typically from uneducated contractors.... See more below.
More than once, I have taken trowel in hand to show a brick layer how to stike a joint. Or have been called to a project site because some moron was too lazy to read the drawings and field corrections have to be made. Or come back and review faulty work because a contractor did not apply joint sealant, expansion joints, or flashing.... you name it.
| kmapro wrote: | As an EWP (engineered wood product) designer, I see plans from architects and residential designers/drafters. I had much rather work on a plan that was designed by a RD than an architect. Simply put, i get better information from the plans and do not have to deal with rediculous nuisances that some one has added just to make a plan look pretty..........
........Now, I am not arguing that residential designers are better than architects...nor am I arguing the opposite. I am stating, from experience, that I get better plans from a RD!!! Point Blank!!! |
And I will garantee if you talk to the local Building Department and Plans Examiner, they will have a few things to say counter to this statement.
| kmapro wrote: | | Further backing that "Architects design aesthetically", I ask...why has architecture been moved to the school of arts vs. the school of science? I checked into getting my architectural degree, and would always find the program listed under ARTS...not science. |
This statement shows your ignorance of the professions (architecture and engineering). I am not going to give you a history lesson concerning architectural education, but since ancient times architecture has been considered an art. It is known as the "Mother of all the art". Actually, architecture is part art and part science.
Architectural education provides a breadth of knowledge covering topics from history/theory, design, building systems, professional practice (contracts, ethics, and so on), and yes even structures.
Engineering education provides a depth of knowledge in narrow area of interest. You will either study electrical engineering, civil engineering, or mechanical engineering (to name a few). The course work is mostly science and math based. They do not teach design, per se, in Engineering school.
There are a mulitude of architecture schools (over 150 in North America last time I checked). Some are design-oriented, others more technically oriented.
Just speaking of a couple of schools.........Ohio State’s program use to be part of their engineering school, Miami University (OH) is in the school of fine arts and is more design based, IIT in Chicao is more technically based. University of Cincinnati is known for their co-op program, which gives them lots of practical experience. Each school is known for producing a certain type of “architect”. However, architectural education is typically a liberal arts based education and can be used in many fields.
Personally, I took two courses in College Physics that lead to a course in Statics and Strength of Mateirals, then took a year of Structures in graduate school (Miami). You do not know what you about talking about. If you don’t know the relationship between physics and structures, then you should stop “designing” framing systems. It’s called Kinetics.
Finally - Builders......
Any monkey can buy a hammer, a bag of k-crete, a pick-up and call themselves a contractor. There are contractors then there are contractors. In the past 30 years, we have begun to create “educated” contractors and treat it as a profession. My alma mater being one of the leaders in this field.
http://www.bgsu.edu/colleges/technology/Undergraduate/cmt/index.html
The course work includes architectural and engineering courses, as well as courses on construction methods/materials, structures, estimating, contracts, and business. There are now a lot of 2 year programs in Construction Technology.
I have two classmates that are professional contractors. One is a Senior officer in a large national construction company, while the second is one of the leading homebuilders in the Orlando area. They are smart, excellent builders, and I have the highest regard for them. They will glady tell you that there are lots of contractors who should not be building.
The best contractors today have some level of higher education, whether through trade unions or colleges. Unfortunely, most of the poorest craftsman and worst builders are in the residential market. It does not require highly skilled tradesman to put up most of the slock that gets built. However, a GOOD residential contractor is a sight to behold. They hire the best craftsman, demand the best materials, and expect to be compensated for their expertise. They also invest in the education and training of their mechanics.
No way shape or form would I compare the home builders who function as professional to the yahoo’s that make up the majority of residential builders. - guys who will slash their price and quality just to make a buck. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Speaking of intercourse...
It seems the same players keep repeating ourselves on the very same subject and enter the very same confrontation, and I suppose the passion inspired arguments are fueled by the fact that there is a public audience that we feel is being influenced by our posts. It's a strange phenomenon really...
At any rate all I want to say, particularly in response to kmapro's last post, is that opinions of what constitute "best" or "better" are meaningless and the insinuation that most Architects provide to you annoyingly overly aetshtically oriented set of documents only proves one thing: you completely misunderstand Architecture. It is not an art, nor is it mired in aesthetics, but is is the science of creating a building that is aesthetic. One without the other is not Architecture...one extreme would be "building", and the other would be "sculpture". If we were to stop and focus only on construction details and how to make the same wall the same...we wouldn't need architects at all...not even residential designers. A client and a builder would suffice. I would to think that residential designers do marry the two concepts of construction and aesthetics on the smaller scale of single family housing, just as Architects create projects of larger scopes. Point being, if there were no architects, the world would continue nicely...the value of the architect is in taking the simplicity of common construction methods and assemblies and putting it all together to create something a little bit more pleasing to the eye...more pleasing to simply experience as you walk through it, around it, live in it, work in it...etc, etc. Architects don't JUST think about how a standard wood floor joist has to be joined at the bearing point. We're not in the business of drawing "Swiss watches"...we're in the business of imagining NEW & BEAUTIFUL "Swiss watches"...
It's a serious challenge trying to develop a consistent methodology in creating building after building that somehow relates to the emotional aspect of a person...far beyond the four walls and a roof. That IS indeed what Architects concentrate on...because a wood frame wall, conc slab on grade and truss roof system is basically built the same way it always has been...that's the difference between a builder and an Architect. Personally, I'm still not sure what the difference between a residential designer and a draftman is though...sorry. They do the same thing.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 133
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | kmapro - nice to hear from you again. I am going to try to address some of your comments. And since you are looking for a fight, I am going to be quite curt in my response. |
Well Hello phansford...Thanks you for the warm welcome
| Quote: | | At any rate all I want to say, particularly in response to kmapro's last post, is that opinions of what constitute "best" or "better" are meaningless and the insinuation that most Architects provide to you annoyingly overly aetshtically oriented set of documents only proves one thing: you completely misunderstand Architecture |
Ahhh..there's my old Buddy mx2
Nice to see you again boys.
Please let me start by saying that you both misinterpreted my posting. I was not looking for a fight or a confrontation from any one. My last line was input as some what of a joke. I knew that I would ruffle some feathers with my words and I will admit that my words are usually a bit controversial and one sided.
Since my education and knowledge seem to be somewhat questioned, allow me to address....
| Quote: | First of all, we all have our opinions and typically they are based on personal experience. Your type of rant has been done before and we don't need to hear or rehash it again. There are talented people and untalented people in all aspects of our industry. What's your point.
|
Yes, opinions are usually based upon personal experiences. I was not ranting..at least I do not think I was. If I sounded in a rant, I apologize.
I also agree that there are talented and untalented people in each profession. phansford, you and I have never really crossed paths with one another in this situation and I have always admired your willingness to an open mind. mx2, on the other hand, has made some pretty bold remarks in the past that really put a bad taste in my mouth...but all is water under the bridge.
Fact of the matter is that nothing will be said here that will make a difference in the grand scheme of things. I will keep on doing what I do, and ya'll will keep on doing what you do.
As to my point phansford...the only point I have ever tried to make is that a non-architect residential designer/drafter is capable of designing a good home..a great home. Whether their education level comes from the school of hard knocks or from an institutionalized class room.
| Quote: | | Lets clarify what you do “during the day”. You create floor framing shop drawings for residential projects. You most likely use a computer program provided by the I-joist manufacturer (Trus-joist - GP- whoever). Using the computer program, you input data such as live load and dead load (which for residential projects is fixed and unchanging) and joist span. The progam will then provide you wilth a range of joist types and sizes to use for the particular application. You proably don’t get to select the final member because the contractor has told you he only wants to use 9 1/4” TJI’s so you use that even though the deflection may be greater than it should be and the floor will be bouncy. That is if you know what deflection is and the various mathematical formulas for calculating it. |
Wow, I am impressed. You did your research on this one didn't you. Yes, I do work for one of the companies that you mentioned and I do use proprietary software to my company and industry, but the answers do not come as easy as you seem to think.
You see, you stated that residential load values are unchanging, I disagree. While I will admit that I have a constant that I base from, that constant is just the root. The loading is based on the span and the load value per the span or should I say due to the span.
You see, in order for me to properly calculate these loads and be able to design these floor systems, I have to know how these members are acting together as a whole. I have to be able to track the load from inception to distribution and follow, or lead, the load from the top to the bottom.
In order to do that, I have to know how a framer is going to frame a structure...their construction methods and practices. I spend time getting to know my clients and their methodologies. I learn their practices so that I can either adjust my designs or I can teach them the correct way to do something. In my position, I have both learned and taught.
Yes, the program will provide me with a range of products to choose from, all though I have a pretty good idea of what will work from the get go.
In the end, I make the final choice as to what the members will be. The customer may tell me up front that they have a certain size of joist that they want to use, but in the end, it is me that dictates what the members will be.
You see, we have a standard rating system that we follow for our design work. Our ratings are based off of years of research and study of how a floor feels to different people..contractors, home owners and professionals in the field. If a member does not meet that criteria, I will not place it.
I will, on the other hand explain to the customer why it does not work and offer suggestions of what to do in order to make it work..but that usually ends up adding more cost to the project than is they were just to go with I design in the first place.
And yes, I do know deflection and how to calculate it. I also know all the other special deflection requirements that I have to keep in the back of my head..such as brick load deflection (L/600 w/ maximal deflection value of 0.3") and tile load deflection allowances....
Not only that, but I have to keep up with all the latest and greatest code requirements as well.
No, my job is not plug and play..I do actually have to know how to think and apply. My job is not child's play.
| Quote: | You might be required to provided a floor plan. You either get the plan in a DWG format from the designer or draw it in yourself. The program will eventually print out a framing plan that for an additional charge, can be signed and sealed by a Professional Engineer.
|
Nope, I get plans from customers in blueprint form. If I am lucky, everything is dimensioned correctly and I can just draw out the items needed for the structural part of the home and then I can get to work.
But. most of the time, I get hand drawn pieces of crap that tell me nothing. I have even worked off of a sketch on a paper towel...honestly.
I have never had to have a set of my designs sealed..and if I were to have to do that, there is no additional charge as the engineer is employed by us.
| Quote: | | Lets not have grand visions of ourselves. As far as I am concerned your work is as important as the guy providing the design/shop drawings for the kitchen cabinets. Important, but no more important than the next trade. |
No grand visions here all though I will admit that it does sound as if someone is putting themselves on a pedestal.
| Quote: | | Lets state fact. It takes nearly 10 years of higher education and internship, plus you have to pass an rigourous test to hold the legal title and license of Professional Engineer, Registered Architect, Professional Land Surveyor, and Landscape Architect. So any ill-feelings you harbor towards a licensed professional seems like nothing more than jealousy. That or you don’t have the fortitude to put forth the hard work it takes to obtain Professional status. And moreover, VERY FEW architects do residential work. |
OK, I'll be the first to admit that I may come to the table with a bit of a chip on my shoulder. But it is not from jealousy..it comes from a bad taste in my mouth from architects who place themselves higher in the food chain because they think they are all high and mighty.
I know the rigors of obtaining a higher education. Believe it or not, I did not just graduate high school and start drawing houses. I have a combined education of almost 10 years. I even went to engineering school...AHHH..shocked ya with that one didn't I?
I attended a junior college for the first three years so that I could get my core curriculum taken care of at a reasonable financial level. It may have been a junior college, but I was always geared with an engineering back ground. I graduated with both an Associate of Science and an Associate of Arts from that school.
As opposed to just going straight to engineering school, I elected to get out there and learn to draw what I was going to be eventually designing. So I attended a technical, now an accredited college, for 2 1/2 years and obtained another associate degree in drafting. While there, I also took classes on physics, advanced physics, fluid dynamics, construction practices and framing technology.
Before I graduated from there, I had gotten married and had a child with another on the way. Again, I put my engineering degree on hold and went in to the working world as a drafter.
Finally a year later, I decided it was time to continue my education. Unfortunately for me, the closest engineering/architectural school to me was an hour and a half away from work and two hours away from home. I still did it though...in Atlanta traffic to boot.
For 3 years, I made the trek to work (1 hour drive), to school ( 1 1/2 hours from work) and then back home (2 hour drive) every week day. With an occasional weekend thrown in for good measure.
OH, I was also a volunteer fireman during all of this as well.
Life for me, at that time, was not easy and with the addition of my 3rd and final child - it just proved to be too much for me. I had to drop out of school and provide for my family.
Am I jealous of you for having your degree?..NO. I am dissappointed with the fact that I was not able to compete mine though. I will have my day though. I have not given up yet,
| Quote: | You do not pour concrete, it is placed. Concrete is either cast-in-place or precast. How much do you really know if you don't know the proper terminology?
|
OK, now you are splitting hairs. Yes "poured" walls are technically "cast in place", but the common terminology across the board is "poured walls". Geesh....and I thought I was high strung
| Quote: | | No one here has seen your work and we can’t comment as to whether you are capable or not. This is strictly your opinion of yourself. And before you continue to run off your mouth you should review the work of rltarch and rscarcht. Their work in posted on their websites. It looks pretty nice to me and their clients must be happy with the work since it was built. |
Yes, it is all about me!!! No, I haven't reviewed their work, nor have I directly pointed fingers at them either. I am sure that they do fine work with the utmost of quality. As I have clearly stated time and time again, I seem to lump the whole term of architects as a whole when I truly do not intend to. I have just been left with bad taste of architects based off of some, not all, of my interactions with them. I do not think all architects are bas people...I just think that some of them have their head up their spam and they think that their "sheet" don't stink. I am sure that others have the same opinion of me..and I can live with that.
| Quote: | | More than once, I have taken trowel in hand to show a brick layer how to stike a joint. Or have been called to a project site because some moron was too lazy to read the drawings and field corrections have to be made. Or come back and review faulty work because a contractor did not apply joint sealant, expansion joints, or flashing.... you name it. |
Congratulations - I am sure that you are one of the few that actually know how to do what you are instructing others to do. From my experiences with architects. most of them have come from well-to-do families that can afford for their vhild to go straight to an architectural school of design and get a degree. Then, they go straight into their internship for however long and then work their way up the ladder...never once having to pick up a hammer or a saw, other than to move it out of their way.
Now, I know all architects do not come from this disciple and this is just a grand vision on my head, but I am sure that there are some architects that could not tell you the difference between a finish hammer and a framing hammer and what each is used for.
| Quote: |
And I will garantee if you talk to the local Building Department and Plans Examiner, they will have a few things to say counter to this statement. |
But I am not speaking for them..I am speaking from personal experiences with the plans I am dealt.
The rest of your posting somewhat bored me, so I will refrain from comments. Yes, I know kinetics and I know that architecture is based on both art and function.
I never personally attacked you or questioned your abilities. I merely spoke of my experiences and never singled any one out.
This is a public forum where opinions can be debated. If I offended you, I apologize. I never meant to personally offend any one.
All I have ever asked for was for a fair shake. Some architects refuse to do that.
I just purchased some design software that will help me speed up my times for design. But up until earlier this week, I completed all of my work in AutoCAD. I literally designed everything. AutoCAD does not put things in order for you like the new design software does.
I have spent my time on the drawing board.. I have spent my time in the field and in the classroom.
I am just tired of the mentality that SOME architects have in that because they have a degree and I don't. Their degree doesn't make them any better of a designer than I am...nor does my experience make me a better designer than they are.
I will end my post with this final paragraph:
I apologize if any one felt blatantly attacked with my words and I hope that my postings can be viewed with an open mind - as I am trying to open mine.
I am sure that everyone on here is good at what they do and I believe that I am a good designer - even if it is just my personal opinion.
mx2 - another time..another place..I have work to do right now.
Good night all.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 829
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kmapro wrote: | I will end my post with this final paragraph:
I apologize if any one felt blatantly attacked with my words and I hope that my postings can be viewed with an open mind - as I am trying to open mine.
I am sure that everyone on here is good at what they do and I believe that I am a good designer - even if it is just my personal opinion.
mx2 - another time..another place..I have work to do right now.
Good night all.... |
KMApro - you have come here more than once beating your chest over the whole licensed design professional verse support staff crap. Your post was a bait and you know..... And I took your challenge. And your defense is your life story..... please. You don't have an open mind and your post shows it.
And you end this rant trying to call out mx2. Sad.......
All you seem to do is rant - apologize - call out forum member. If you can't to add to the discourse don't post.
And to clarify the profession you so desire to be part of...... for all intents and purposes everyone starts out being a draftsman or a CAD operator. Its all part of the internship. Hard work allows them to advance in the profession. We have posters at all levels of the profession who add greatly to the discourse. I personally value their contributions, yours excluded.
Time to use my personal ignore button. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi kmapro
This topic has been discussed before and I am sure it will be discussed again I don't see anything wrong with that. Kind of off topic but I am not a big stickler for keeping threads strictly on topic.
I guess we all use forums to vent sometimes;)
It is very difficult to not lump people into some group or other. Even I do it and I try to be very careful about that.
I see this same frustration in many of the threads I read. (see architecture commodity or craft)
If I could create the perfect world I would have a system where the only thing that counts is our ability to do the work we are given well.
The hard question is how do we make it better.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 133
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am not beating my chest...I, along with other non-licensed designers, am tired of being grouped as a bunch on know-nothings.
Am I hot headed? Yes, I guess that I am but it is only when I, or my peers, are insulted by someone who has no means to be pointing fingers.
Case in point - read cs's post.
I just happen to be more vocal.
The only reason I listed my "life story" was to further inform that I am not someone who just picked up a pencil. Learned how to draw a straight line and called myself designer. No, I went through the ranks and learned from my experiences.
If you choose to ignore me, that just shows your efforts to an open mind. I clearly stated that I was attempting to open my mind.
The only reason I apologize for anything is because it is not my intent to personally offend or attack any one. I have already stated that I am hot headed and I shoot from the hip. I respond as soon as I read without giving external thought. I respond with feelings of rage - if you will - yet I still try not to offend anyone person. Then when I have had some time to think out the response rationally, I make an attempt to clarify that my feelings and cooments are based on the situations not the people.
Reread your original post to me and then ask yourself who is beating their chest..If I am beating mine, it is only in retalliation.
So far, you have questioned my knowledge, questioned my education, insulted me and my profession. Yet, you clearly state that you know nothing about me or my work...if that is the case, how do you feel the right to judge me.
You have responded to me with a "Holier than thou" attitude, I retorted and then you choose to ignore...that really doesn't make sense to me. I thought you were open to debate?
The fact of the matter is that I do understand what architecture is - I may not understand the way your view your exact profession, but I do know architecture. I enjoy architecture. I try to look at things from the designers eyes when I view a livable work of art - whether it seems practical to me or not.
I spend my free time going out to subdivisions and marveling over others work or questioning why they did what they did. Most people see a home..I see a classroom that open up opportunity to learn from others.
I constantly ask myself...why did they do this or how did they portray this idea to the builder/framer? I have even walked away saying, "WOW - I had never thought of doing that". I then take that information and store it away in mind so that I can recall the answer to a similar situation in the future. I don't copy their work, I learn from what they have done and then apply that strategy to the situation when I face it.
I am probably one of the first to pat a designer (licensed or non-licensed) on the back for a job well done. I have even went as far to contact the designer of some of the plans, I have worked off of during my day job, and praised them for a job well done.
Choose to ignore me..I really don't care. I will still read your postsings and comment when I feel the need..it won't always be negative. I have even prasied some of mx2's posts in the past.
Speaking of which..I was not calling him out. I was merely tired of typing and had to get back to work. I actually enjoy debating this with mx2. He does bring a sense of intelligence and humor to the table.
He and I have been back and forth over this issue in the past...yet he never chose to openly ignore me.......
Let it be known that the comments I make are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for the whole of non-licensed designers. If you care to judge me, then do so...but don't judge my peers by the ill feelings you have torward me. I just happen to be more vocal than others. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
That brings up an interesting topic (at least to me)
I am also on the CORA and the PPB2 forums and I have to give Kevin credit for allowing a very high level of freedom in discussion. I don't recall if I have ever seen him ban anyone or censor a post unless it was inappropriate. -Good job Kevin.
I am often surprised by the reactions I get when I simply try to stimulate an engaging and thoughtful conversation and respond in a precise manor to previous posts. (but that is another thread)
| Quote: |
Am I hot headed? Yes, I guess that I am but it is only when I, or my peers, are insulted by someone who has no means to be pointing fingers.
Case in point - read cs's post. |
Yeah that is a challenge. Even though I know I should do better my first reaction is often insult back and let them see that it is not so much fun being on the receiving end.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The constant amount of insults we non-architects have to endure around here make it pretty easy get feed up.
RSCarcht starts it in this thread.
phansford said in another thread:
"I would be hard-pressed to think an architect was involved in enclosing the balconies (sleeping porches). If the whole house was renovated, then possible. But they could have easily been enclosed by hiring a local contractor, albeit with some level of taste to create a decent looking mullion pattern. "
Over and over and over.
Please try and find this type of thing coming from non-architects unless they are provoked.
The problem may be that there are a lot of very poorly educated people in the building industry. I friend of mine is a builder. He puts as little thought as he possibly can in each house he builds and is totally unconcerned with learning anything about them other than how can they make him more money. It is extraordinarily painful to try and work with many of the subcontractors.
Unfortunately we are lumped in with this type of people. Believe me when I say this type of person is in all parts of life.
You think I like my work to be viewed as a commodity? It has been dismissed by all architects I have talked about it with online. I don't recall one kind word. I work hard at my job. I care about what I do. I think I have earned the right to be respected.
I can't say that I think many others around here have.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
blogger
del.icio.us
digg
slashdot
