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| Do you favor the style of "cookie cutter" home communities? |
| yes I do |
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| no i don't |
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80% |
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| I really don't care either way |
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| Total Votes : 5 |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: SW Ohio
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 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Architorture wrote: | | i'm not meaning to throw around fascist as being quite FASCIST... more just the idea of some entity entirely controlling the development of a city and town... |
Is that fascism or communism? There is a point where the right and the left meet and it's not the middle.
| Architorture wrote: | disney may act a particular way about their development but they are still disney, and there isn't a disney in every town to be doing the development...disney has many more goals connected to other things than the run of the mill developer or municipality... we can talk about the image of a subdivision or of a city, but i think the effort put into those ventures pale in comparison to the efforts disney puts into the creation and maintainence of its image...
so i think celebration as a model to be applied else where doesn't really work... |
Well Disney is Disney and they are a powerful force. They seem to be makng it work at Celebration. That being said, I think neo-traditional planning has its place, but like most things gets watered down and ususally fails when done by developers who do not want to go the whole nine yards like Disney did. Would you like Celebration if if was not Disney?
| Architorture wrote: | i know the company town story... and for the ones in PA most have come to an unhappy end... hershey being the most recent example i think... the company more or less cut jobs, raised rent and eventually sold off the property to fund other ventures [or something along those lines]
and once again you are dealing with a 'company town' which i don't think can be easily applied to the rest of the world of development...and how many of those company towns where anything more than mass produced housing to some extent? |
There are varying levels of the company town. I don't think Hersey owned the entire town, but controlled enough land to be a force. Same thing as a company town. Not a good thing overall. Benevelance is only as good and only last as long as the CEO who started it is present.
| Architorture wrote: | i just don't necessarily think that association or the developer is in the position to create the better design that seems to be being called for in this thread... obviously they are profitting quite well from the current situation so any move to change probably wouldn't be favorable for them...
i don't know, maybe we are just saying the same things in different ways... |
I think you are correct, we saying the same thing. I don't like the whole HOA thing, but it has become a necessity due to our zoning requirements for open space and storm-water detention. I doubt that you could do a development where you create the open space requirement in a large enough mass, with a water feature that acts as a detention basin for storm water runoff, then dedicate it back to the city as a park. They would most likely reject the dedication. They don't want to be responsible for anything, even the public good (okay that was cynical - sorry)
| Architorture wrote: | | as for robert stern |
I am sure the Business school is very classical in its design. But do you really want one of Steven Holl's pieces of academically neat, but horribly built pieces of garbage (And I like Holl designs- he just can't build)
| Architorture wrote: | | and you certainly hit the nail on the head in that people don't like living in art...which has been pretty well demonstrated throughout the history of residential design done by high-art driven architects... |
But that does not mean we (architects) should not be engaging the issue of quality design. But you will find out that most architects look down at architects with a residential practice. "Oh, you do houses?"
| Architorture wrote: | | ...just on a side note, even though i like wright and his homes... i find some of them, particularily fallingwater to be extremely unfriendly to anyone who is taller than 6 feet...which some have said comes from the fact that wright himself was short... |
Acutally not all of Wright's work is based on his small frame. You need to see the Oak Park stuff. The cool thing to remember about Fallingwater is that it is a weekend house and it is to give the feeling of living in a cave. Now days there is a lot of that house that would pass code - which is a sad commentary on our building codes. But that is a whole other thread. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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i guess i could have used fascism or communism... i guess they sort of meet on the other side of the political circle [if you think of it as a circle instead of a line]
i think the core situation is that people who end up in 'sprawl' or these subdivisions and stuff often times would like to live in a 'town' they don't want the urban landscape but almost no one is doing development in towns where all the realestate is already owned...
celebration created a town atmosphere...which i think is what people really want and enjoy, just no one is doing it for some reason... there are plenty of little towns out there that have their own set of subdivisions growing up around them...had developers simply just continued the town model that was already setup it wouldn't be 'urban' but it wouldn't be the systems we see everywhere today either...
i think it becomes about this 'otherway' not urban, not suburban...but kinda the 'town' which i think is what celebration is
stern fits in very nicely with the "vision" that the president of the university has...brick and limestone...punched windows...
but there are some more 'modern' features to the building as well, like a gigantic glass circulation space...
i know what you mean about residential architects, it seems like anyone who aspires to design houses is looked down upon |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Architorture wrote: | i think it becomes about this 'otherway' not urban, not suburban...but kinda the 'town' which i think is what celebration is
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I am always making the arguement to stop looking at urban solutions. Everybody wants to increase density to center city levels - and use NYC as an example. It does not translate to smaller cities and towns. I am always looking at the Small American Town as a development example. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| i think the small american town is the best development system...but like i said, you can look at alot of small american towns that aren't growing...at least not in the planned way inwhich they have developed up until this point... |
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orangecrush
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
I am not sure if my comments are misplaced in this thread, as I am by no means an expert on architecture.
I plan to begin building a home for myself in the next 3 months or so. For the past 6 months, I have been trying to find an architect in North Florida that was interested in doing a Modern style home.
I found no takers. Some have tried to discourage me from building that type of home. I even had one tell me that "modernist homes are hard to appraise" and I would probably never get my full value if I sold it.
I purchased some software and began designing my own own. I still have some tweaking to do, but overall I think I have a beautiful and unique design.
Most people that have shown the elevations and floorplan to, love it. Men really seem to like the elevation, more so than women. Women like the layout.
I have friends that are contractors and developers. Every one of them has asked to build the house. They all think it is unique and stylish and will look good in their portfolio. One of my friends showed the plans to some contractors. 4 of them contacted me and wanted to do the house. 3 of them offerd a substantial discount on their services.
I wondered why builders would be so gung-ho to do my design, when they won't build modern homes themselves.
One good answer: Most subdivisions today place restrictions on the type and architectural style of house you can build. People who want modern or unique homes, simply can't find property in convenient areas, that will allow them to build that type of home. Getting a variance from an HOA is pretty much impossible.
I was lucky to find a huge lot, in an excellent neighboorhood that has no building style restrictions. There are many styles of architecture in the neighboorhood and my home will look just fine there. I just wish, I had the same luck in finding an architect.
In my county, we have Haile Plantation and Town of Tioga, which are similar to Celebrations, but not on the same scale.
It would be wonderful if there were more options out there for people that want something different. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| orangecrush wrote: | For the past 6 months, I have been trying to find an architect in North Florida that was interested in doing a Modern style home.
I found no takers. Some have tried to discourage me from building that type of home. I even had one tell me that "modernist homes are hard to appraise" and I would probably never get my full value if I sold it. |
It is true that an appraisal for a modern house is difficult. There are not a lot of comparibles and the resell market can be slim.
Part of your problem may be the architects you are asking to design the project. Most residential designers/architects are tied to a builder and have been sucked into the developer/builder mentality. I used to work for a firm like that.
But there could be a variety of issues, such as your design budget. Plan on spending between 10 -15 % of your construction budget for true architectural services. You want the HVAC (heating and cooling) system designed by a professional, not the mechanical subcontractor. They will not account for the additional glass and solar gain.
It might be your definition of a modern house, I dunno.
You should probably contact someone who does modern houses. There are many good firms in the south that could provide that style. But you will need to pay for it. Expand your search. Look into Atanlta, Chicago, and New York firms. I have an old empoyer who is retired in Florida and won many design awards for both his residential and commerical work - all modern.
| orangecrush wrote: | | I have friends that are contractors and developers. Every one of them has asked to build the house. They all think it is unique and stylish and will look good in their portfolio. One of my friends showed the plans to some contractors. 4 of them contacted me and wanted to do the house. 3 of them offerd a substantial discount on their services. |
Your friends could be trying to be nice. You will never know. I have had a few clients who can't tell us what they like or dislike in the deisgn, but will tell others freely. Which is silly since we pride ourselves on address out clients concern. That is why we have a lot of repeat work and referalls. Don't expect your friends to be free with their true feelings. Just a fact of life. The only person who has to like the house is you.
Fact of life, those who want to give a discount are in need of work and are not the builders you want to do a true Modern house. They will eventually have cost overruns that they will hit you with. (These comments come from 18 years of professional experience - stay away from these guys) You will need a small commerical builder who also builds houses. But is not necessarily a member of the local HBA (Home Builder's Association).
If you like your design. Hire a draftsman to finish the project. If your state laws allow this to occur. I don't know the licensing laws in Florida (Some states do not require a licensed architect to design a private residence)
| orangecrush wrote: | | It would be wonderful if there were more options out there for people that want something different. |
They are out there and it happens when folks like yourself have the courage to purchase a lot outside an HOA and demand something other than the status quo. |
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orangecrush
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It is true that an appraisal for a modern house is difficult. There are not a lot of comparibles and the resell market can be slim. |
I am in Alachua county, where unique homes abound. Many were designed by professors at the University of Florida's Architecture school. However most were built years ago.
When they hit the market (very rare), they are gone very quickly. Days on some of them.
| Quote: | | Part of your problem may be the architects you are asking to design the project. Most residential designers/architects are tied to a builder and have been sucked into the developer/builder mentality. I used to work for a firm like that. |
That may be the case.
| Quote: | | But there could be a variety of issues, such as your design budget. Plan on spending between 10 -15 % of your construction budget for true architectural services. You want the HVAC (heating and cooling) system designed by a professional, not the mechanical subcontractor. They will not account for the additional glass and solar gain. |
My budget is fine. I plan to build with ICF's and the house has lots of glass, so I know I need professionals for the heating and cooling.
Truthfully, not one architect asked what my budget was. I had one draftsman ask that.
| Quote: | | It might be your definition of a modern house, I dunno |
My idea of modern is Richard Meier (Giovannitti House and Grotta House) and Barry Sugarman (Krieger residence).
I just dont' want anything too big. under 3500 sq feet.
| Quote: | | You should probably contact someone who does modern houses. There are many good firms in the south that could provide that style. But you will need to pay for it. Expand your search. Look into Atanlta, Chicago, and New York firms. I have an old empoyer who is retired in Florida and won many design awards for both his residential and commerical work - all modern. |
I did a half-hearted search in Miami. It seems that many architects there are doing commercial.
| Quote: | Your friends could be trying to be nice. You will never know. I have had a few clients who can't tell us what they like or dislike in the deisgn, but will tell others freely. Which is silly since we pride ourselves on address out clients concern. That is why we have a lot of repeat work and referalls. Don't expect your friends to be free with their true feelings. Just a fact of life. The only person who has to like the house is you.
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My friends are so brutally honest, it would scare you. If they don't like something they will tell you....and quick. I am the same way. The main complaint I have had, from friends, is that they think the house should be smaller (under 2500 sq feet). They think bigger homes hurt the environment.
| Quote: | | Fact of life, those who want to give a discount are in need of work and are not the builders you want to do a true Modern house. They will eventually have cost overruns that they will hit you with. (These comments come from 18 years of professional experience - stay away from these guys) You will need a small commerical builder who also builds houses. But is not necessarily a member of the local HBA (Home Builder's Association). |
In Florida, right now, there is no such thing as a builder in need of work. In my area BEFORE the Hurricane it was hard to get a builder...good or otherwise. 2 of the builders that offered a discount are award winning and known for innovative features in the interior of their homes. They are all members of the local HBA.
In my quest, I have come to conclude that there are some frustrated builders out there. Some would like to do something different, but can't.
| Quote: | | If you like your design. Hire a draftsman to finish the project. If your state laws allow this to occur. I don't know the licensing laws in Florida (Some states do not require a licensed architect to design a private residence) |
The codes always change after a hurricane  . I do need an an engineer to stamp off on them. The drafstmen that I found were associated with firms and they pretty much tried to get me to change the exterior of the house to "something traditional". In my state I can act as my own contractor, which seems to be the way some are going here.
| Quote: | | They are out there and it happens when folks like yourself have the courage to purchase a lot outside an HOA and demand something other than the status quo. |
I would be nice if the newer developments were not so rigid. In south Florida they are crazed tyrants. I am sure you have read some of the headline making incidents.
Of course you could always head this way.....  |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 525
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:40 am Post subject: |
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OrangeCrush-
The fact that you cited Richard Meier shows you know what modernism is. I am not trying to be disrespectful, I just been down this road too many times. But now we have a mutual understanding. That is good.
The Miami architects will probably only publish their commerical work. You should just call and even ask for names of architects doing that type of work. Also mention that you want a modernist house in the style of Richard Meier. This shows you know what you are talking about and want to do something serious. I have a client who came to us and stated they want a house in the Case Study manner and have also discussed the work of Meier, Neutra, Koning and others. My ears perk-up. It will be a nice project.
Your construction budget, depending on detail and materials, for the house only (no site work) should be $150-$175 per SF ($525,000 to $625,000) minimum. The budget I am talking about is your design budget - what you will pay an architect - the design fee with mechanicals and lighting/electrical should be about 6 - 8% of your construction budget for Construction Documents only and 10-15% (for bidding/Negotitation and constrcution administration). These are Ohio numbers for your style of house. Are you ready to pay $35,000 to $50,000 in architectural fees? I sure the cost for a "normal" house design is about $5,000 and that is a builder's permit set of drawings only - no HVAC and so on.
I never recommend people act as their own contractor. You need to have a long standing working relationship with the subcontractors you are going to use. IE: You schedule Joe's HVAC to show up Thursday to do his rough-in. Bob the Big Builder, who does 35-50 houses a year with Joe as the HVAC contractor, calls Joe on Wednesday night and tells him to get over to his project. Where will Joe be on Thursday? Answer - No where near your house. I have seen it too many times. It is not as easy as it seems on This Old House or HGTV.
Being a member of the HBA is meaningless. I prefer to work with people who are NOT members of the HBA. The HBA has no criteria for being a member. I have met too many members who were accountants last week and are builder's this week yet have no experience in construction. So when there is a problem, particularly technical, they are clueless. I actually sat in a meeting where the owner of an HVAC company stated he did not know anything about mechanical systems. We fried him and banned him from our projects.
Good Luck |
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orangecrush
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The fact that you cited Richard Meier shows you know what modernism is. I am not trying to be disrespectful, I just been down this road too many times. But now we have a mutual understanding. That is good. |
I did not think you were being disrespectful at all. It is hard to understand someone unless they make themselves clear.
| Quote: | | The Miami architects will probably only publish their commerical work. You should just call and even ask for names of architects doing that type of work. Also mention that you want a modernist house in the style of Richard Meier. This shows you know what you are talking about and want to do something serious. I have a client who came to us and stated they want a house in the Case Study manner and have also discussed the work of Meier, Neutra, Koning and others. My ears perk-up. It will be a nice project |
Excellent suggestion. I will try that. My neighbor gave me a great idea also. She told me to approach some of the architecture professors at the University of Florida. She thinks that one may be interested in a project like this one. She says that most of them are "frustrated modernists at heart".
| Quote: | | Your construction budget, depending on detail and materials, for the house only (no site work) should be $150-$175 per SF ($525,000 to $625,000) minimum. The budget I am talking about is your design budget - what you will pay an architect - the design fee with mechanicals and lighting/electrical should be about 6 - 8% of your construction budget for Construction Documents only and 10-15% (for bidding/Negotitation and constrcution administration). These are Ohio numbers for your style of house. Are you ready to pay $35,000 to $50,000 in architectural fees? I sure the cost for a "normal" house design is about $5,000 and that is a builder's permit set of drawings only - no HVAC and so on. |
I live in an area that has lower building costs, compared to other areas of Florida (the southern area and Orlando area can be pricey). I am willing to pay what I need, to get what I want.
| Quote: | | I never recommend people act as their own contractor. You need to have a long standing working relationship with the subcontractors you are going to use. IE: You schedule Joe's HVAC to show up Thursday to do his rough-in. Bob the Big Builder, who does 35-50 houses a year with Joe as the HVAC contractor, calls Joe on Wednesday night and tells him to get over to his project. Where will Joe be on Thursday? Answer - No where near your house. I have seen it too many times. It is not as easy as it seems on This Old House or HGTV. |
I don't really want to be my own contractor either. With the Hurricanes, some contractors are giving starting dates of mid-2006. There is a serious contractor shortage in Florida.
| Quote: | | Being a member of the HBA is meaningless. I prefer to work with people who are NOT members of the HBA. The HBA has no criteria for being a member. I have met too many members who were accountants last week and are builder's this week yet have no experience in construction. So when there is a problem, particularly technical, they are clueless. I actually sat in a meeting where the owner of an HVAC company stated he did not know anything about mechanical systems. We fried him and banned him from our projects. |
It is a little different in our area. They do have requirements. Florida has become much tougher, since hurricane Andrew in the early 90's.
Thanks so much for the input, it has been great to hear from someone that understands what I am looking for.
Happy Holidays. |
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