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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:19 pm Post subject: the loss of a fundamental right in NYC |
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in critique of the WTC master plan...i feel there is a missed opportunity to bring back to NY what it has long missed...the right of free assembly...
in response to the free assembly "cages" in recent events...NY has no areas for free assembly...and areas that exist simply to do not fulfill the need considering the growth of the city...
the opportunity i speak of in the WTC site is the location of three future towers, the sites of which will be placed three smaller buildings to fund money because of economic problems...
the need for open space...for free assembly is needed more to exhibit our freedoms and liberties more than icons of freedom such as the reflecting pools and light walls... |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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i think a problem people will have is do you want free assembly in a cemetery?
the thought of protests and such on the places of large scale killing might turn some peoples stomachs |
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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:51 am Post subject: |
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i think more than that...so much of the plan centers around exhibiting our freedoms to the world...but the one thing more than any that shaped our future is the right to free assembly...
and people need to push forward and realize that this way is certainly more effective than any amount of icons we place there...in my opinion... |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:30 am Post subject: |
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but by designing a space specifically for "free assembly" you have created a 'controlled assembly'...where it assembles is known, its controlled, its understood by those who might not agree with it...
designing 'free expression' has never worked, b/c you have created the framework, so the expression is always bound by that framework... |
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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| but you can look at other examples of free assembly areas...such as the mall in washington...or city hall plaza...these are designed assembly areas...but when filled the consensus is not one of boundaries or designation... |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1115
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:33 am Post subject: |
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absolutely right - large public piazza, large wide streets to bring the troops.
societies like the American and the British do not like gatherings except where the authorities decide. Indeed the tactics of the British police are based on it.
makes the people easier to attack once they have been boxed in.
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| i agree that these areas are not designed specifically for the gathering of citizens...yet that is the result...and my main point is that assembly has been such a large part of this country's development and for a site looking to show freedom more than anything else...they are turning their back on a great opportunity to excellently display the freedom they are looking for... |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1115
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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I completely agree with you - and that the WTC site could have been an ideal location. Not only is it large enough for such a space in addition to the rent-earning space that seems so essential to some, but its significance for New Yorkers surely makes it a logical gathering place.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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how many gathering spaces are necessary in NYC? the problem i see is that you are complaining about 'free speech zones'....wouldn't this just be making another free speech zone?
the problem isn't in designing spaces for free speech and assembly its in allowing speech and assembly in every space...
so there will be a speech/assembly space
a gun shop
a barracks to quarter soldiers in
a court house where you can become a member of a grand jury or have your fair public trial
a bail/bondsman office
ect, ect  |
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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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how many gathering spaces are required in new york...i would argue at least one that is up to date with the current conditions including population in new york...
designating a cage for protest and allowing open space to be occupied if neccessary for protest reasons are two entirely different things...
step away from these outdated rights from the civil war days...that is not the only time when the idea of free speech was used to change this nation...
i suggest you enroll in some more recent architecture history course at penn state... |
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ether
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Illinois, US
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:57 am Post subject: |
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What's Union Square? Washington Square Park? The Lawn @ Central Park?
Isn't the WTC in a more business district of Mahanttan, anyway? On the otherhand, I could see this as helping Lower Manhattan develop due to the canyons of Wall Street. |
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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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union square, washington square park...way too small to still be successfully used as free speech and protest areas considering the immense growth in new york from the time those plans were developed...
as for the lawn of central park...it's way too far away from where any possible event would be held that draws protesters...
open areas are needed just as much as built structures...you're talking about building up to the point of roads and built form...this can't happen, even in the densest of urban settings... |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| francojean23 wrote: | how many gathering spaces are required in new york...i would argue at least one that is up to date with the current conditions including population in new york...
designating a cage for protest and allowing open space to be occupied if neccessary for protest reasons are two entirely different things...
step away from these outdated rights from the civil war days...that is not the only time when the idea of free speech was used to change this nation...
i suggest you enroll in some more recent architecture history course at penn state... |
civil war? free speech? i guess i'm not seeing the connection to that being the last time when free speech was used to change this nation...
my point is, you don't need spaces for free speech....they should be everywhere...once you have deemed a specific place you have created a situation in which speech has been controlled...every street corner should be a place of free speech...
then you are arguing against central park simply b/c 'its too far away' well how do you know that the WTC site is going to be close enough to anything in the years to come... and that also only assumes that you would be protesting something that has some connection with downtown manhattan ie finances and money? maybe globalization? that seems to totally disregard other things you might choose to protest against... |
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jeanneleez
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:56 am Post subject: WTC |
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Everyone is seeming to forget that the WTC and the site was and still is private property. Although the owners have been "open to suggestion", it is ultimately up to them what gets built there. Only abutters have any actual cause and only if a variance issue occurs.
Demonstrations and free speech can be controlled on private property very easily. No tresspassing, baby. |
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francojean23
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:03 am Post subject: |
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all true, it is private property...but the opportunity is there nonetheless...which gets to my new theory of design that everyone be appreciative and consider architecture, that all are proponents, not just architects...
and after a series of replies in this thread...i'm glad to see something of some substance, some design aspects...more than most of the technical posts i see on here...
living up to its name, design community, not code and technical community...when i first approached this website it seemed to be more a construction forum...
getting responses from the community encourages me and hopefully others to bring their ideas and concerns to the table for discussion and not just ask things that could be easily looked up in the code or local zoning... |
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