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| do you support the usa's actions in iraq and its support for israel? |
| yes completly |
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50% |
[ 4 ] |
| I support USA's actions in iraq only |
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[ 0 ] |
| I support israel |
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[ 0 ] |
| No I do not support the States on both counts |
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[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 8 |
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hanihamad
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Egypt
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:31 am Post subject: a political analysis of the current situation |
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to put it as simply as possible these are the facts:
1. Politics is a complex issue all issues are in one way or the other connected.
2. almost all arabs including myself have a sense of arabism so if a man gets raped in iraq or a child gets killed in israel I get mad in egypt. but My hands are tied I can do nothing to help the child or the man.so naturally I am frustrated.
3. To start it all off america supports israel's every action including massacres in jenin, sabra,and shatila asking palestinians to restrain themselves. I ask you if you support israel where the hell was this implant nation 80 years ago and how do you explain the mass immigrations to it.
4. meanwhile americas famous CIA trains arabs and afghani muslims to fight against the soviet invasion of the country in order to weaken its biggest rival at the time the soviet union.
5. these trained fighters from all over the arab and muslim world win in their "Jihad" in a war that was fought away from our muslim world their ideologies morphed through religious ignorance and american teachings from the peacful islam I and millions of muslims believe into a vengeful violent force that wants to avenge the israeli violence and its american support and in turn become the enemies of america - the nation that created them -.
6. israel continues its planned massacres and killings. palestians live without hope in the future they have no nation no rights no security. they are dying every day and nobody does anything.
7. as a civilized person I go out and demonstrate - nobody listens - my nation doesnt approve the israeli actions but it doesnt have the military power to stop the israeli nuclear arsenal or the american arsenal.
8. Palestianians rise up "intifada!!" the last resort is suicide bombings if you have no hope in living then an honourable death fighting your oppressor is the best you can hope for.
9. america asks palestinians to restrain themselves. america outlaws their elected president. america doesnt condemn israel's methods or its landgrab wall. america invades iraq. america tortures its prisoners though it was enraged when iraq showed interviews with american POWs in the beginning of the war this torture includes rape, electricution, male rape, threatning with dogs, killing, forced sex with other people for the viewing pleasure of the soldiers all in compliance with the geneva conventions!!!!.
10.people in the arab world are desperate, hopeless, they no longer beleive in that justice will prevail. after all arab nations are asked to disarm, forced to disarm, or even occupied for the sole goal of creating a safer israel this makes me sick your american silence makes me sick. your american freedom of clothes brought to the iraqis makes me sick.
11. after all this frustration you send an american jew "nicolas berg" to iraq I think your government was asking for it. Rational Muslims have nothing against jews but the number of irrational muslims has largely increased due to the before mentioned reasons of YOUR doing.
12. Conclusion: America should have gone to this war without UN agreement but since it already happened it should pull out today. America should STOP its all out support of Israel. Only this will put an end to the violence both me and you hate. |
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saab95
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 5
Location: On my Mac, defending capitalists at the Fireside forum
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Real conclusion: The Arab World should westernize. 
It is totally the fault of your leaders that you have poverty. No industry in its right mind wants to do business in your countries, since they cannot be ensured any protection from many of the governments there.
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Saab95
" Creative minds—from Thomas Edison to Steve Jobs—flourish only under freedom" Andrew Bernstein |
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hanihamad
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Egypt
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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once again saab where are you from?? I dont beleive you when you say you live on or in your mac defending whatever  |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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i think the simple fact is that the middle east has always been a place in a constant state of upheavel... there has been numerous rulers over the area and just as many overthrows...
the ottomans unified the area for a good bit of time but collapsed under corruption and being used as a chess piece by the super powers of the world in the last days of its existence...
since jews were run out of the middle east with the rise of islam and were then persecuted and eventually put on the brink of extinction in europe the western powers that had failed to secure freedom for the jews created an israeli state... the united states supports it b/c the US is ashamed that it failed the jews in the days leading up to WW2...i think europe originally supported it in hopes it would rid them of the jews, since europe is ferociously anti semetic... we can see that today with europe's disdain for israel and its continued anti semitism...
but besides that, my original point is this... the middle east through out its history was ruled from afar by some occupying force... each time that force has left or collapsed the region falls into turmoil with all the in fighting... most recently this happened with the british pull out... shortly after the region fell into fighting amongst themselves...culminating in the persian gulf war when the united states became the new controlling force in the region...
when a region controls a resource as valuable to the world as oil the rest of the world isn't going to allow that region to be constantly fighting one another... so as long as israel and the united states are there the arab world is somewhat united, which allows for some kind of stability...
if israel and the US disappeared from the region today, tomorrow the region would not be celebrating, they would return to infighting...
i think its very telling that nearly all of the conferences of arab states end in a couple of delegates getting into a screaming match and insulting one another mustaches... |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1128
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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"since europe is ferociously anti semetic"
"since jews were run out of the middle east with the rise of islam"
under the Ottomans Jews were treated with high respect.
Europe most certainly is not "ferociously" anti-Semitic. I am Jewish and I live in Europe. You are lying - or repeating lies - for your own reasons.
now go back to designing a concentration camp for people with dark skins and you might get a job with KBR.
Incidentally, the Turks refused America's demand to allow a northern front for their attack on Iraq because the Turks considered America's proferred bribe to be unlikely to be paid. It is all in the press. America is too dishonest even to be corrupt.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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first of all...for all you know i am also jewish but i found no need to include this, b/c my personal spirituality has nothing to do with the debate at hand...
i guess i must have misunderstood the recent change to an EU report on anti semetic activity...in which they originally blamed increases on the influx of islamic immigrants...but then after an independant commission took a look they decided it was from neo nazi groups... that is pretty bad that the EU is trying to pass the buck for anti semetism to the more stylish and acceptable group of muslims...when in fact it is neo nazis or their like minded brethren who are the culprits...but of course admitting this just shows the rest of the world that europe has yet to come to terms with its past...which it would much rather hide and forget than actually take responsibility...
no one was very concerned about hitler and what he was doing until it spilled out of his own country...i think that says alot about europe's view of the jews... granted the united states also turned a blind eye, but we were also in a state of isolation and an entire ocean away from the situation...and we have attempted to make the wrongs right |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1128
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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of course being Jewish and in Europe is relevant.
I am one of the people that you are pretending is being oppressed.
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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well thats funny... b/c i am one of the people who you are claiming is being lied to...and yet i don't believe that to be so...
not all those who are in a situation are necessarily aware of it |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1128
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:15 am Post subject: |
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strange that the leaders of the Jewish community in France see the situation the same way as I do.
or are we all meant to believe that they don't know what they are talking about either ?
have you even been to Europe ? you should be careful about mentioning America and what happened to the Jews of Europe, especially with a member of the Bush family in the White House. A family that traded with and profited from the Nazi regime into 1943 is not something to be proud of. (it used to be called trading with the enemy - sobering when one thinks how close Dubya is to the bin Laden family, isn't it ?)
"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." - George W. Bush, Junior.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1128
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Killing a near-blind quadraplegic with heavy armaments as he comes out of prayers - that is indeed something for you to be proud of Donald.
That takes guts.
I hope that you aren't too scared by the "terror" warnings. (I was going to make a joke about the risk of an attack on Hawaii, based on intelligence that is over fifty years old, but I thought that you might have to go into therapy.)
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Haut wrote: | strange that the leaders of the Jewish community in France see the situation the same way as I do.
or are we all meant to believe that they don't know what they are talking about either ?
have you even been to Europe ? you should be careful about mentioning America and what happened to the Jews of Europe, especially with a member of the Bush family in the White House. A family that traded with and profited from the Nazi regime into 1943 is not something to be proud of. (it used to be called trading with the enemy - sobering when one thinks how close Dubya is to the bin Laden family, isn't it ?)
"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." - George W. Bush, Junior. |
so is the european union lying? b/c you never acknowledged that piece. also i believe i read today that a cemetary in your beloved france was defaced by swastikas...that seems rather odd in such a tolerant nation as you keep claiming...
i would love to know more about the bush family and their dealings with the nazis...b/c that is certianly one i have never heard before. as for the bin laden connection...you must be a big fan of michael moore huh? GWB sr. was a director at an investment company that worked in bin laden family money... you do realize the bin laden family is one of the richest in the middle east don't you? so richest in the middle east dealing with one of the largest investment firms in the world... that doesn't sound like a conspiracy or anything...
and what do you even mean by showing that connection? that george bush and osama planned out 9/11 together b/c they are best friends? it is just another example of the concept of 6 degrees of separation...that you can be connected to nearly anyone in the world...
i can connect myself to osama bin laden if i want... i work with a guy who plays in an adult soccer league...in that league there is a team that is all immigrants from yemen...he is friends with a couple of the players...last year one of the players was arrested with 5 others b/c they had gone to an al queda training camp in afghanistan, where they met osama bin laden.... there you go, i'm connected to bin laden, i must have some devious plan to terrorize the world...
and don't give me the old "have you ever been to europe?" bit, b/c i have. i lived there for an entire year and i actually have irish citizenship and an EU passport. |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1128
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Michael Moore ? nothing particularly new in his work.
so you lived in Europe for a whole year, did you ? and a few swastikas are daubed on graves by some idiots and for the likes of you that means that Hitler is back.
it is AMERICAN soldiers who rape Iraqi boys in back rooms - it is AMERICAN soldiers who abuse and torture people in America's concentration camps - it is AMERICAN soldiers who plant evidence on innocent Muslims.
and even more recently (last few days) it was AMERICAN government officials who blew the cover on a Pakistani agent working inside Al-Queda.
Now why would they do that ? Because the one and only reason for blowing the cover of a successful working agent is TO STOP THEM FUNCTIONING.
Probably afraid that if he got too high up inside Al-Queda, he would start hearing AMERICAN accents.
Just check the FBI's own documents on the first attack on the WTC - remember that one ? When the FBI had a turned agent, a member of the terror gang, an Egyptian who came to them and said that he could replace the explosives with dummy and the whole lot could be captured ? Remember that - and HOW THE FBI REFUSED ?
Was there US involvement in 9.11 - I neither know nor care. Americans obviously didn't care enough to have it properly investigated or to protest when evidence was destroyed.
Stop trying to blame Europe just because you are too - forum abuse - gutless to "fight" for your own country.
Bush lied to start a war (as your own government has been forced to admit) and still cretins like you carry on cheering for dishonesty.
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Haut wrote: | Michael Moore ? nothing particularly new in his work.
so you lived in Europe for a whole year, did you ? and a few swastikas are daubed on graves by some idiots and for the likes of you that means that Hitler is back.
it is AMERICAN soldiers who rape Iraqi boys in back rooms - it is AMERICAN soldiers who abuse and torture people in America's concentration camps - it is AMERICAN soldiers who plant evidence on innocent Muslims.
and even more recently (last few days) it was AMERICAN government officials who blew the cover on a Pakistani agent working inside Al-Queda.
Now why would they do that ? Because the one and only reason for blowing the cover of a successful working agent is TO STOP THEM FUNCTIONING.
Probably afraid that if he got too high up inside Al-Queda, he would start hearing AMERICAN accents.
Just check the FBI's own documents on the first attack on the WTC - remember that one ? When the FBI had a turned agent, a member of the terror gang, an Egyptian who came to them and said that he could replace the explosives with dummy and the whole lot could be captured ? Remember that - and HOW THE FBI REFUSED ?
Was there US involvement in 9.11 - I neither know nor care. Americans obviously didn't care enough to have it properly investigated or to protest when evidence was destroyed.
Stop trying to blame Europe just because you are too - forum abuse - gutless to "fight" for your own country.
Bush lied to start a war (as your own government has been forced to admit) and still cretins like you carry on cheering for dishonesty. |
well i'm glad we can have a civil conversation with light spatterings of the word "FUCK"...really shows the level of intelligence here...anyway...
i never said hitler was back...i said there was still strong, organized anti-semetism in europe...which an EU report supports...
okay are we going to play the "who's country did worse things game"?
b/c there is the one entire side of africa...i'm sure you are familar with it... it is pretty much the entire western half... yeah the french had a really good time there killing people who only wished to have freedom... god knows what attrocities were committed...seeing as there never was much of a media presense there to get the story out... but yeah france it is a real tower of righteousness, their military has never done anything that they should be deeply ashamed of, they have never had individuals act out in a horrific way...france is top notch... funny b/c that isn't want many western africans would say...
what is with this belief that there is a connection b/w not only bush, but now also the FBI [which is a non-partisan investigation force] with al queda... the FBI isn't connected to big business, they have no money to be made... as for the first WTC...i wasn't very old at the time, not sure of all the details surrounding it...but i do know that hindsight is 20/20 and always too late.
and this american involvement in 9/11...that makes sense...first you say bush is a total idiot...then you say that he is brilliant enough to somehow contact bin laden [enemy of the state for nearly a decade] and convince him...3 years before the attacks mind you...b/c that is when the planning began...so in 98, when bush is still governor of texas...b/c he knew already he would win the 2000 election 2 years later and need something crazy to happen in september to spice things up...so 2 year after that he could attack iraq to get the oil....
a connection b/w bush, or america and 9/11 is absolutely rediculous, unless you are going to now tell me that the clinton administration had helped out bin laden too...all that time they were trying to hunt him down with cruise missles was all a front i suppose?
oh yeah! that makes TONS of sense... you are just being paranoid and have listened to way too many of your bleeding heart liberal weenie euro-trash buddies...
i never said i supported the war for the reasons given by the administration have i? i'm pretty sure i have not... please show me where i was talking about WMD...i don't think its in the post...
the war was a good idea b/c the oil supply needs to be safeguarded. i don't care if it does anything for terror one way or another. suadi arabia is heading for hell in a handbasket so their oil supply structure will be crumbling soon, they had their hayday for a decade and now they are on a steep downward slide...in the mean time we have secured iraq enough to know the oil supply structure won't be deteriorating any further...
in the end the war on terror will be over in 20 years no matter what...b/c once the oil runs out, the reason for western involvement in the middle east is finished as well...
furthermore, i haven't blamed europe for anything having to do with current situations...i might have made an offhand comment about their feelings toward the jews...but i haven't said they have contributed to anything else...
as for this gutless comment....i find that pretty funny coming from a frenchman, i'm sure i don't have to tell you that france doesn't have the most shining reputation as a brave nation, hold those white flags high, don't worry the US will bail you out later...
you might not be aware of this, but military service is not compulsory in the US, it is a choice. some people choose the military some do not. i did not b/c it was not what i wanted to do. i want to be an architect. so i went to architecture school. my father and all of my uncles fought in vietnam [remember the french started that situation] my grandfather fought in WW2, a few of my cousins and close friends are in the service... none of them would ever call me gutless b/c i didn't join the military...
if the draft were reinstated today, and i was called upon, i would accept my duty as a citizen, i wouldn't draft dodge.
i know pride in ones country is frowned upon over there in europe b/c if you get a little too much nationalism everyone starts to think of the past...the past where europe has fougth life and limb for hundreds of years and still today there is unease and mistrust b/w european nations b/c of these unresolved differences...the united states doesn't live in shame and try to sweep the past under the rug... when things are settled we make peace with our foes... i find it interesting this is the first year that a german representative has been invited to normandy...60 years to make peace? that seems a little much.
just stop the personal attacks, they are unwarrented and not welcome in a place where we are supposed to be learned individuals but if you are so compelled to continue i can reciprocate with ease... |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1128
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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let me explain it very simply:
1. I am not a Frenchman. I am British - and the Brits have been lied to just the way you have.
2. Don't insult the French just because they did not lie to the UN.
America is a great nation which is being disgraced by Bush and those around him.
That is why it matters.
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard Haut wrote: | let me explain it very simply:
1. I am not a Frenchman. I am British - and the Brits have been lied to just the way you have.
2. Don't insult the French just because they did not lie to the UN.
America is a great nation which is being disgraced by Bush and those around him.
That is why it matters. |
well i am sorry for insinuating you are french. my deepest apologies.
i wasn't insulting the french b/c they didn't lie to the UN...where did that come from?
furthermore, you have managed once again to pick through an entire post of mine in which i have made valid points, at times contrary to your paranoid conspiracy theories, to only comment on very small unimportant points and totally disregard the big point of my post.... you've yet to answer for the EU anti-semetism report, how in any way bush contributed to 9/11 through his supposed connection to bin laden [who was planning 9/11 in 1998] or why you have turned this into a personal attack?
but carry on if you must...you are making such great points such as "i am not french...you are wrong! bush is dumb." |
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