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Derek
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 598
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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 Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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manamana,
Maybe it's worth trying PowerCADD stripped down to the bare bones by turning everything off with the Loader?
Derek
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Also, let's remember that this problem only exists with machines with the Logitech mouse.
Have you completely checked that all traces of the Logitech software has been removed?
Check the startup items.
In Activity Monitor, look at all of the threads that are running. There are various levels that you can look at: User, System... so check them all. You can select a thread and quit it.
Alfred |
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Derek
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 598
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
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hmmm, I wonder if it could be cross-talk or interference with Logitech cordless devices? That might explain why using USB Overdrive and Steermouse software haven't fixed it.
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jasonlocher
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 649
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Alfred Scott wrote: | Also, let's remember that this problem only exists with machines with the Logitech mouse.
Alfred |
This occurs with any mouse that I use, none of which are logitech.
Seriously though, this issue was reported years ago and was blamed on "user error". |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
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manamana,
How about doing a couple of simple tests.
Note whether Edit All Layers is on or if it makes a difference with this problem.
Take a PowerCADD drawing that has the problem on your machine, duplicate the file, delete all the objects in the drawing (leaving only the layers), save it and then reopen it on your machine. Does it still jump?
Regardless of the outcome, move both files (original and empty) to a machine that does not have the problem. Does it jump on both files?
What I'm looking for here is whether there is an object in the file that might be the source of this. One candidate would be a date stamp object (there are two, one for WT and one for PC), and possibly when one of the updating routines hit, it could cause a layer shift.
And if it does check out, then please let us know whether it is a WildTools or PowerCADD date stamp object.
And if this is the problem, then you should be able to turn the problem on and off by turning off the updating of the date stamp objects.
Alfred |
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manamana
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:06 am Post subject: |
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I can't be certain but it doesn't appear to happen if edit all layers is off. I don't use that very often, but I've been trying to pay attention for the last little while.
| Quote: | Take a PowerCADD drawing that has the problem on your machine, duplicate the file, delete all the objects in the drawing (leaving only the layers), save it and then reopen it on your machine. Does it still jump?
Regardless of the outcome, move both files (original and empty) to a machine that does not have the problem. Does it jump on both files? |
I haven't had time to do this exactly, but files that jump on my machine do not jump on others. I don't believe it is related to anything in the file, it seems to be all about what machine you're on. I don't have any files that don't jump. |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Everything points to an event being generated outside PowerCADD.
I would focus on the Activity Monitor to find any threads that are running and which might cause this. You can look at the threads at various levels (system, user, etc) and you can select a thread and quit it.
Alfred |
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manamana
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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highly doubt it.
I've gathered activity monitor logs from everyone in the office, and setup a comparison table in excel. There is no process, at any level, that is running on the computers with the problem that isn't also running on a computer not having the problem.
I've also done as you suggested earlier and gone through quitting processes with no effect, other than to make my computer less usable.
what's interesting, from conversations with people in the office and reading other comments here, is that on some computers it seems to happen more frequently than others. (approx. 2-3 times a day vs. 2-3 times per hour) |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Okay, if you're sure it's a problem related to the user and not the drawing, then the next step is to look at all of the user choices in the PowerCADD preferences. When I do this, I usually take a screen shot of each one, print them out and then compare them with other ones.
Also look at the Loader to see if you're loading the same set of plug-ins, and consider firing up a problem machine with all plug-ins taken out to see if the problem continues.
Welcome to the wonderful world of chasing down bugs. As frustrating as this might be for you, you've still got it easy compared to actually creating software!
Alfred |
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patrickm
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 397
Location: santa barbara, ca
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| To troubleshoot this a bit more, would it be beneficial (for one of the users with frequent layer skipping behavior) back up his preference files, then trash the ones in the Library and restart PowerCADD t (creating fresh preferences), then play around for an hour or so and see if the behavior still happens? |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
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One explanation for this behavior would be with a Window or Layer iterator. Unfortunately, this is programming terminology, but one of the most common things that happen is that a routine will run through the list of objects in a drawing window, and in order to do this, it runs through the layers. So if it were going through the list backwards, it would set the current layer to the last layer, check that layer, then advance to the next layer up.
An example of a tool that does this would be a date stamp tool that is checking to update a date stamp object. In WildTools and the Date Stamp tool, you have a choice to Update the objects, or something like that.
Normally the business of setting the layer back to where the iterator got started is handled automatically, but programs are written by human beings which have been known to make a mistake from time to time.
The fact that this happens with a frequency of every minute or two suggests to me that a date stamp checker might be causing the problem, since it would check every minute or so.
Alfred |
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Jeffrey Jakucyk
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 111
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| When I experienced this it always jumped to the bottom (stationery) layer, which just happens to be where the date/time stamps are. That might be a good test for anyone else experiencing the problem, to move any date/time stamps to a higher layer, and see if that's where the drawing jumps to. Could it be more likely of a problem if you have more than one date/time stamp in the drawing, or on a particular layer? For instance, a date stamp on the title block, and a date/time stamp with pathname along the binding edge. |
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manamana
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The fact that this happens with a frequency of every minute or two suggests to me that a date stamp checker might be causing the problem, since it would check every minute or so. |
AFAIK we don't use the date/ time stamp tool on any of our drawings. I've removed it from the loader though, we'll see what happens.
I should clarify that it isn't always every minute or two. Sometimes it'll go for upwards of a half hour or an hour without doing anything. And then sometimes I'll set it back to the right layer, grab a tool, and it'll be back on the bottom layer.
| Quote: | | To troubleshoot this a bit more, would it be beneficial (for one of the users with frequent layer skipping behavior) back up his preference files, then trash the ones in the Library and restart PowerCADD t (creating fresh preferences), then play around for an hour or so and see if the behavior still happens? |
I do need to do this and other troubleshooting like it, but it's tough when every hour I spend on this takes me away from billable work. Oddly none of the bosses have this issue, so anytime I/we vent about this it's seen simply as whining.
| Quote: | | Welcome to the wonderful world of chasing down bugs. As frustrating as this might be for you, you've still got it easy compared to actually creating software! |
I realize this, I took a few programming courses in college and write a MEL/rhinoscript from time to time. The difference is, we (the firm) paid for the privilege of these hassles, and in fact I'm losing even more productivity (money) chasing down an issue that was reported years ago and ignored. I don't mean to be snippy, but that's frustrating. Chances are I'll be coming in on weekends to work on this.
For those that had this problem years ago - what do you remember about how it stopped? (if it did) |
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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manamana,
Okay, when you say "grab a tool" and then the layer changes, right there you want to stop and ask yourself what was the last action you took. Which tool did you grab? In a case like this, you want to look 'upstream' at the last action you took. If you can isolate this to the selection of a particular tool, then we can find and fix this easily.
And all bugs are repeatable.
Tom Beno has been seeing this problem and has been trying to find the source. In his case, the current layer jumped from the "Main" layer to the top layer on the list "Border", a layer he very rarely uses. He was not able to see it jump but he noticed when he was drawing immediately after the current layer changed.
In his case, he's seen this happen with the WildTools Balloon Text Tool and the WildTools Parallel Offset tool (which he has set to "place on current layer".
I certainly understand the frustration. If any of us knew where the problem was, or what was causing it, of course we would fix it immediately.
One thing to keep in mind here is that it's possible that a tool changes the current layer but does not do what is necessary to have the Layer Window update itself. Of course, nobody is changing the layer on purpose, so this is understandable. But just remember that a change in the current layer may be 'hidden' from you because the Layer Window has not yet been updated to reflect the current situation.
It all says we have to be looking upstream. When I am chasing a bug like this, I have a piece of paper available, and when I see something happen, I immediately write down the previous actions I've taken which may be three or four separate things. At some point a pattern emerges.
Alfred
Alfred |
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John Cruet
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 352
Location: Guilford, CT
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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I can't help but be curious about this whole issue of layer jumping.
The symptoms described in this thread have yet to happen to me in my work.
However, I did have a problem in setting up sheets where a layer in the layer window would shift its position every time I set up a new sheet and switch between sheets. I've since chalked it up as a mistake on my part and try as much as possible to develop layers I think I will need from scratch, then set up the sheets afterward, rather than attempting to do this on the fly.
My recommendation to anyone regarding layer management is to do the utmost best you can to try to set up all layers before you set up the sheets. This would include layer scales, layer colors, etc. Try to avoid doing this on the fly.
I do not run PowerCadd on an office network, so I have to admit being unfamiliar with how the program behaves on a network.
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John Cruet
G4/733 w/1028 mb RAM & OS 10.4.10, Classic-free, skuzzy-free (runs PC7)
MacBook Pro 2G Intel core duo 2 gig RAM & OS 10.5.4.
PowerCadd 8, WT 9
Canon iP710 printer
www.johncruet.com |
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