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malfunction
Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:43 pm Post subject: Victorian living room divided in two, what to do about it |
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I'm trying to come up with ideas for renovating my Victorian home. One of the things I'm looking at is turning two rooms into one; let me explain.
When the house was built, around 1900, there was a traditional large Victorian living room/parlor/dining room/sitting room; whatever they used it for. In the 1950s or 60s, possibly the 1970s, former owners divided this room into two by putting up a drywall barrier. Now there is a living room and on the other side there is a bedroom. On the living room side there is a traditional plaster ceiling (there are several cracks, but I prefer to not rip it down and replace it with drywall) with a swirl pattern. There was never any intention of making the wall look nice or making it fit in with the rest of the room(s). It's like a Stalinist addition to what was formerly a beautiful room. It's a blank wall with an ugly utilitarian baseboard which doesn't match the others, and there is no crown molding like in the rest of the two rooms. Both rooms share the crown molding which is now rudely cut off by the wall dividing the room. At least they didn't remove the crown molding. The ceiling on the other (bedroom) side is just basic drywall.
What I have decided to do, after consulting with several people such as designers and contractors, is rip down this wall. This will return the room to its natural state, thereby allowing natural light through and allowing the nice original baseboards and crown molding to be unified once again. However, I don't know what to do after that. On the other side there is the bedroom, which I am using as such. If it were open, it would be kind of weird to have my bedroom open to anyone who happened to be visiting. And ripping down the wall would mean the loss of the closet space in the bedroom.
I don't know, it might look stupid that the ceiling on one side is plaster in a swirl pattern, cracked in places, while on the other side it is perfectly flat, straight drywall. So maybe I don't want to unify the rooms? Or maybe I would have to rip down the plaster ceiling and put up drywall to make them look the same? But then the crown molding would get damaged even more than it already is. Or maybe the rooms should still be sort of separate, by using something like doors or shelving to divide the rooms?
If I want to continue using the bedroom as such after removing the wall, how should I provide privacy? Should I place bookcases where the wall was? Should these bookcases go as high as the 10'6" ceiling? I found some websites showing bookcases which slide, http://krow.livejournal.com/485934.html swing http://www.instructables.com/id/Hidden-Door-Bookshelf/, or even rotate http://www.dezeen.com/2008/06/16/franz-kafta-society-center-by-steven-holl-and-marcela-steinbachova/. Should I put sliding or pivoting doors in place of the wall so that the two sections of the room can be either open or closed off?
Or maybe I should not use the other side as my bedroom anymore? Turn it into a true extension of the living room like it was in the first place? Then I would not have to figure out how to separate the two sides at times without using a wall. Then I could put bookcases along the other walls. That section of the room could become the office or library or whatever.
I'm not sure what to do. I want the room both open and closed. I want storage on both sides. I want the crown molding and baseboards unified rather than cut off. I want the room returned to its original state but still want the rooms divided for privacy at times.
Here's a pic of the wall. <img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_CLHSTuEIMns/Sj03g5SrMnI/AAAAAAAAATk/FYqxcgGbIp0/s144/001.JPG" />
Here's another pic of the room. <img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_CLHSTuEIMns/Sj03hFxl-rI/AAAAAAAAATo/8qRO4eM_9u8/s144/002.JPG" />
Here's a pic of the closet on the other side. <img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_CLHSTuEIMns/Sj03h-7uqAI/AAAAAAAAATs/Q7AKGoEUzns/s144/003.JPG" />
I guess I'm really not sure how to reconcile the desire for an open plan and natural light and movement, with the desire for privacy. And the fact that it's a Victorian house which I don't want to ruin by trying to be trendy and modern, though I don't want to live in a museum either.. IMHO the original house was designed well, then people came in later and did things that don't fit properly, and I want to erase or at least adapt those later things. But I don't want to be cursed in the future, like I am cursing some of the previous owners, by creating problems of my own. There's a lot to think about.
This is really frustrating. There's a lot of choices and I don't know what is the right one. So if anybody could offer suggestions, solutions or ideas.. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Well - There is a lot of information you have provided, but there is also a lot of information missing. But basically it comes down to personal preference.
Honestly, one has to see (in person) the spaces and the overall house to understand all of the constraints and issues influencing any recommendation. A floor plan of the entire house would help - but unreasonable to expect you to provide for the questions you are posing.
From the photos - the room doesn't look that big to function in the dual manner you would like.... meaning all of the sliding, slipping, folding doors ideas seem kinda of silly. If there are enough sleeping spaces in the house and losing this makeshift one won't hurt your overall need, then turn the room back into living space. Or you could always do the Murphy Bed thingy and still have the openess and dual use you desire.
As far as the ceiling - it would be unlikely the swirl ceiling is original for the age of the house. Simply applying a new layer of 3/8" gypsum board over the entire ceiling (ala the This Old House technique) can provide a nice clean ceiling and cover the damaged plaster.
Good luck |
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malfunction
Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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You're absolutely right, you have to be here and surrounded by these constraints, and opportunities as well, to get any idea of what to do. I'm no architect but since I live here, and see the various problems every day, I'm starting to get a clearer idea of what to do about them. I've been here for almost 2 years and it has taken all that time to start to be able to put a real plan together.
I had initially hired somebody to draw blueprints for the renovation, but this person was never here, didn't answer many of my questions, and was coming up with solutions that weren't going to work due to constraints. Also the person didn't seem to respect the fact that this is an old house and you can't just rip everything down and start over. I would have bought a condo if that's what I wanted. Some things are worth keeping.
I'm finding this mentality from many of the contractors I've had in here to quote me on work. They all suggest gutting everything and starting over. Buying everything brand new, even if what is there is fine. Like this carpenter insists I rip down the true 2x4 studs, the original ones, even though they are level, so he can replace them with the smaller ones they are selling now. Why? I don't know, I'm not a carpenter. I can understand ripping down the 1x2s that lathe was attached to, but not these fine 2x4s. Unfortunately I took his advice and threw some of them away. I could have pulled the nails out and he could have reused them, but I'm sure he would have refused.
I don't know how to answer people when they tell me these things. I don't know enough about construction. Maybe there's some logical reason you can't reuse original 2x4s. My instinctual reaction to keep things if they look solid, are authentic, can be reused, and I can't see any problems might be wrong. Or maybe these people are just being lazy.
I think you are correct in saying the rooms are not big enough to use that shelving solution. I doubt if I would have been able to find anyone able to build such a thing to my specifications anyways. If I try to build it myself it won't turn out so good and might even cause structural damage. Anyways, I created a floor plan based upon removing the wall between the two rooms, and the new larger room would be perfect for a living room + office + library, with plenty of space for movement throughout the room and storage along some of the walls. It will have better lighting as well.
The problem is, there's no other bedroom on this (main) floor. The house is divided into two units. I plan on renting out the upper floors. Luckily, there's an addition on the back of the house which was being used as an office and storage. I just discovered that I can just barely fit a bed and a few things into that room, and traffic through the room will still be possible, though somewhat cramped. It will require some adjustments to the room.
If I cover the plaster ceiling with drywall after opening up the room, won't the ceilings be at different heights? They still won't match. Or maybe they did that on the other side too. But looking at the crown molding, I don't think they did. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| malfunction wrote: | | I had initially hired somebody to draw blueprints for the renovation, but this person was never here, didn't answer many of my questions, and was coming up with solutions that weren't going to work due to constraints. Also the person didn't seem to respect the fact that this is an old house and you can't just rip everything down and start over. I would have bought a condo if that's what I wanted. |
You need to find an architect - probable a small firm or single person. The first questions you ask is .. "Have you worked on historic homes? I want to protect the historic features of the home - are you interested in working on such a project? Show me similar projects - give me a list of references."
| malfunction wrote: | | I'm finding this mentality from many of the contractors I've had in here to quote me on work. They all suggest gutting everything and starting over. Buying everything brand new, even if what is there is fine. |
Although they think otherwise - contractors are not designers and many of them are not concerned about historic houses. Its much easier for them to just tear everything out and start new. Why.... they don't have the skills to do the work. It is that simple.
Same as the designer.... you need to find a contractor who has worked on historic homes. We have one that matches the woodwork and plaster and you can't tell the difference. Amazing work.
Ask the same questions to the contractor you ask the architect.
| malfunction wrote: | Like this carpenter insists I rip down the true 2x4 studs, the original ones, even though they are level, so he can replace them with the smaller ones they are selling now. Why? I don't know, I'm not a carpenter. I can understand ripping down the 1x2s that lathe was attached to, but not these fine 2x4s. Unfortunately I took his advice and threw some of them away. I could have pulled the nails out and he could have reused them, but I'm sure he would have refused.
I don't know how to answer people when they tell me these things. I don't know enough about construction. Maybe there's some logical reason you can't reuse original 2x4s. My instinctual reaction to keep things if they look solid, are authentic, can be reused, and I can't see any problems might be wrong. Or maybe these people are just being lazy. |
First - these people are serious underqualified if they are saying these things. Your gut instinct is correct. Just tell them no.
There is no reason to remove existing fabric unless it is damaged - meaning termite, water, or structural stress (failure). None of those sound to be close to your situation as you describe it.
The fact is anyone can buy a hammer and call themselves a carpenter. However a real carpenter would either buy a 2 x 6 and have it ripped to match the original 2 x 4's (there isn't going to be a lot of them so the cost is minimal) or used modern 2 x 4's and fur the wall to match the existing.
| malfunction wrote: | | The problem is, there's no other bedroom on this (main) floor. The house is divided into two units. I plan on renting out the upper floors. |
Okay - that's important information. Take an other look at the Murphy Bed - with the side closets you can provide the sleeping area and storage you need in the space. My gut feeling is the space is too small to be dual function and the two rooms as they are are too small.
The little office in the back might be fine...... You just have to think of the bedroom for sleeping and not a living area. Just make sure there is a window in the space and it provides a minimum of 5 SF of net open space. This is a code issue. The window is your second means of egress out of sleeping rooms during a fire.
| malfunction wrote: | | If I cover the plaster ceiling with drywall after opening up the room, won't the ceilings be at different heights? They still won't match. Or maybe they did that on the other side too. But looking at the crown molding, I don't think they did. |
The "bedroom" may have been furred down - or already plastered. That is the fun and excitement of renovations. You get to discover great things like the ceilings don't align.  No big deal.... a little furring - a layer of gypsum board and you're all set.
I am curious - where are you located - midwest, east coast, south - large city - small town? Location could be driving some of your contractor-architect issues. |
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malfunction
Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: |
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I thought the person I was hiring WAS an architecht. It turns out she may have only been a designer. I became suspicious of her after she told me to rip out the original baseboards and moldings and lathe. I had hired a professional to tell me what to do, assuming a professional would know more than me what to do with this vintage house. After I became suspicious, I checked her out and found she was only listed as an architecture student by the province (Ontario) although when I fired her, she claimed to be licensed as an architecht in Michigan. That may be true, or not, but I'm in Ontario and I thought I had hired an architecht.
So now I'm trying to design the renovation myself. I am learning a lot, but that's starting from zero knowledge about houses, construction, design, or anything related. After nearly 2 years, I'm getting frustrated living in a construction zone. It's filthy and most of the plumbing has been turned off, walls are down, windows are missing, floors have gaping holes in them, it's a disaster. If the city came in here, they would condemn it and make me move out. I need someone to tell me what to do, but their answers always make me suspicious that they are just trying to make a quick buck. Window people want to sell me vinyl windows. I tell them, look around this neighbourhood. Do you see a lot of vinyl windows? This is an old Victorian house. They don't care. They still insist vinyl windows are the best. The contractor/carpenter I mentioned in my previous post has insisted on my demolishing some original studs. I am afraid to actually hire him because as you mentioned, old houses may not be his area of expertise, even if he is very talented with new construction. Or maybe he knows how to work with old materials, but would rather use new and finish quickly. He wants to bring in his plumber friend to do my plumbing. The first thing he said was that his friend would rip out all this 'ugly' copper piping and replace it with new plastic. That's because plastic is better, he said. I was speechless. He continued; the copper is going to get banged around during the construction, it'll be damaged, we'll just replace it with new plastic.
But I like the copper. Not only is it already there, solid, and re-useable, it keeps the noise down. You can't hear water flowing through it. There is a plastic drain in another part of the house and you can hear everything, every little drop. Who wants that? If these guys replace my 'ugly' copper with PVC, it will force me to pay them extra to soundproof the paths along which these pipes are running. And then they will take the copper and sell it. My copper. I actually want to replace the plastic drain with metal. Then this guy comes in here and tells me the opposite. So maybe a brand new copper drainpipe costs $200. Does $200 make a difference in how much it is costing me to deal with all these other problems?
I think things would have moved in a more orderly fashion if the insurance industry had not forced me to remove all the knob & tube wiring before I could qualify for insurance. This required me to go through the house ripping holes in walls and floors to find where maybe there might be some knob & tube. I had 2 people helping me who knew something about electricity. We got nearly all of it, but then I was left with all these holes in walls, ceilings and floors, and it made sense to renovate before repairing the walls, and run additional wiring, and install better lighting, replace the bathroom, replace the other bathrooms, might as well replace the kitchens while I'm renovating, oh look, there's water damage here, I'll just rip that out, oh, now look at what I found under this, what do I do about this now; and this must be structural damage here, etc. etc., and it just snowballs into the disaster I'm in now.
If I rip down much more, I might as well rip down the entire house. But I don't want to do that, and I can't afford to build an entirely new house even if that was my intention. But I now understand that I'm not qualified to do this renovation. I am afraid that I will ruin its character through ignorance or hire people who will, because they just don't care and it's not in their interest to maintain the character. They have to make a living.
As for the back of the house where I am thinking of moving my bedroom, it wouldn't be a living area anymore. The bed would take up most of the floorspace. When I want to walk out to the planned deck through the planned doorway (there is only a window there now, nobody ever put a back door on the back addition!?!), I and my guests would have to walk through this bedroom and around the bed. It's not ideal. I'm sure there's another way to get out to this planned deck, but it would involve creating a new entrance by turning the window in the current bedroom into a door and building the deck all the way around to it. And of course, that would create more problems in some other area, that I would have to think through.
No solution is the final one. Every solution to every problem I come up with here metastizes into multiple new problems.
I wish I could just hire somebody to make the problems go away, but no, that would metastize into other problems as well. I understand that now.
So if I actually do recombine the 2 halves of the living room, and if I find the ceilings don't match, I'll see what has to be done at that time. Maybe there's a nice plaster ceiling above the drywall one in the <bedroom> half. No, if there is one, it's probably severely damaged. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| malfunction wrote: | | ......he said was that his friend would rip out all this 'ugly' copper piping and replace it with new plastic. That's because plastic is better, he said. I was speechless. He continued; the copper is going to get banged around during the construction, it'll be damaged, we'll just replace it with new plastic. |
There is absolutely no reason to replace cooper. It is far better than plastic and it will only get damaged by contractors who are looking to make work for themselves.
You need to fire this guy immediately.
| malfunction wrote: | | But I like the copper. Not only is it already there, solid, and re-useable, it keeps the noise down. You can't hear water flowing through it. There is a plastic drain in another part of the house and you can hear everything, every little drop. Who wants that? If these guys replace my 'ugly' copper with PVC, it will force me to pay them extra to soundproof the paths along which these pipes are running. And then they will take the copper and sell it. |
You're smarter than you think and I think you're on to their scam...... 
| malfunction wrote: | | I think things would have moved in a more orderly fashion if the insurance industry had not forced me to remove all the knob & tube wiring before I could qualify for insurance. This required me to go through the house ripping holes in walls and floors to find where maybe there might be some knob & tube. I had 2 people helping me who knew something about electricity. We got nearly all of it, but then I was left with all these holes in walls, ceilings and floors, and it made sense to renovate before repairing the walls, and run additional wiring, and install better lighting, replace the bathroom, replace the other bathrooms, might as well replace the kitchens while I'm renovating, oh look, there's water damage here, I'll just rip that out, oh, now look at what I found under this, what do I do about this now; and this must be structural damage here, etc. etc., and it just snowballs into the disaster I'm in now. |
You did not need to remove the knob and tube - just deactivate it and replace it with new. So you made a lot of work for yourself.
Sounds like your doing a lot of work without a real plan or strategy. You need to get some professional help. You might contact the Ontario Association of Architects . There is a profile of members and firms on line. They should have a list of architects who do residential design and historic design.
At this point - you might consider just hiring them for consultation on an hourly basis. They might be able to recommend a reputable contractor. This is something - based on what you are telling me - I might try to handle on an hourly basis with a maximum of 8 to 12 hours. I would probable write descriptions of the work needed - some drawings. Mostly photos and go from there. (I charge $85 per hour... to give you an idea to consider what you should expect to pay). We do type of work quite a bit here locally. I am sure you can find someone in Ontario.
Sounds like your just over the bridge from Detroit - about 3 hours from me. So there are people in the area who should know how to do this work.
Feel free to PM for more detailed responses to your questions. |
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malfunction
Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: |
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If I hire a real architect, and I'd love to, the costs would spiral out of control. Permits, fees, inspections; as it is now, I won't be able to address many of the problems here. With all those extra fees, I won't be able to accomplish anything. I might as well just clean up the mess, get somebody to patch the walls and floors up and try to sell the house before the market collapses. Such as the contractor who wants to replace the copper and use only new studs. This is where my thinking is evolving to. This is not what I wanted to do. I wanted to restore the house and live here but I don't know where to start and I'm losing my mind living here. Everybody I bring in here is making me suspicious with their suggestions.
Under these circumstances - few construction skills, poor organizational skills, zero design experience, somewhat limited funds and limited time, I am probably not the right person for this restoration/renovation project. I'm willing to work on it but I don't know how. When I try, I get a book that claims to teach you how to do various home improvement projects, or renovation projects; and I search on the internet for instructions; these books and websites can't really teach you how to do something 100% correctly, and they are giving you instructions which are not based upon what you actually have to work with. So I only cause more damage. And in attempting to do these things, I find a hundred other problems that I have to start researching what to do about. Nobody wants to show you how, they want you to pay them to do it. Then they want to do it their way, which involves ripping everything down and going to Home Depot to buy plastic replacements.
You live, you learn. The house seemed significantly underpriced when I bought it. Now I know why.
I still don't know what to do. You're exactly right, I don't have a strategy other than the vague strategy of restoring the worthwhile features like the wood floors, the original moldings and baseboards, making the exterior look nice, and renovating the rest of the house bringing in better lighting and more wiring. No idea as to how to make much of this happen without being somebody else who has a clue. It looks simple on the surface but as soon as you start, one little problem balloons into a hundred, affecting everything around it and even things in, you would think, totally unrelated areas of the house.
There are structural issues in the basement which, if not addressed, prevent me from doing other things. And if I address that one problem, all the money is gone. So I can't do those things which depend upon solving that one problem.
An architect would tell me I have to deal with these structural issues. But I can't pay an architect, and the city for permits, and address these issues, and renovate the house. I can do some of those things, but not all of them.
Actually, that is my strategy - to fix the underlying structural issues and then work my way up. But that's not affordable, at least not if I hire people to do it the right way. And go through the whole permit process, bringing in a structural engineer and an architecht, etc. If I try to do things myself, I don't have the experience to do hardly anything here. On the first and only try at say, replacing a floor, I might succeed doing it 100% correctly, but I probably won't. And I might create new problems. That has already happened in one of the bathrooms. There are issues that never occurred to me until after the floor was replaced. And it took me months to plan out that floor. Now the contractor wants to come in and do it over.
Maybe I should just hire Home Depot to come in here and make it look like a starter condo, then bail out. Vinyl windows, 1-inch particle board baseboards, laminate flooring, the works.
But seriously, I'm not giving up that easily. No vinyl will be installed on this house. I'm still going to try to repair this house the right way, over the protests of any contractors I actually hire. Thanks for the backup on the copper/PVC issue.
And on 2nd thought, I think I will look for a restoration architect who can give me a basic strategy/plan. Sort of like the work you suggested you would do on an hourly basis, but with lots of instructions for myself and the contractors, including drawings of what everything should look like when it's finished. Maybe I don't want to spend tens of thousands on full service but if somebody can just tell me what to do, and what to tell contractors, that would help a great deal.
Thanks for your advice. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Every project has a budget and some projects need to be broken into multiple tasks that can be accomplished over time funds allow.
When you talk to an architect (interview might be a better word) - tell them you are interested in working on an hourly rate and you want to define the number of hours as to create a maximum fee. This is how you can begin to control your design budget. It might include the architect reviewing sketches you create on graph paper or simply meeting a contractor to review the basement issues.
Not every project requires me to create tons of drawings and reduce old grow forests You need to find that local architect who can help you. As you begin to call around and he get an architect who does not provide those services - ask if they know architects that do residential work. I get referrals and provide referrals all the time.
If I were closer - this could be a fun project to be associated with. I currently have about 4 small projects all based on hourly rates not to exceed 24 to 32 hours of work. Its what the client and the project needs. Two of those projects are for public projects. Go Figure.
Good luck. |
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malfunction
Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: |
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There's like 200 architects listed in the phone book. It doesn't say what kind of work they do. Am I supposed to call them one by one? The OAA only has 18 architects listed in their membership, so it's obviously incomplete. And there's nothing on that website which indicates what kind of work these 18 members do. I contacted the City to see if they would give me their list of approved heritage building architects, but the City is on strike. And my house isn't a heritage building anyways. It's just old.
I guess I will start randomly phoning architects.. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| malfunction wrote: | There's like 200 architects listed in the phone book. It doesn't say what kind of work they do. Am I supposed to call them one by one? The OAA only has 18 architects listed in their membership, so it's obviously incomplete. And there's nothing on that website which indicates what kind of work these 18 members do. I contacted the City to see if they would give me their list of approved heritage building architects, but the City is on strike. And my house isn't a heritage building anyways. It's just old.
I guess I will start randomly phoning architects.. |
You should be able to contact the OAA office and ask for a list of architects who have identified themselves as residential - historic preservation architects.
But the phone book works also. .......... |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Instead of grabbing the phone book right away..... I would download their publication "Profiles" .... There is a comprehensive listing of architects by city and many have webpages and emails in the back of the directory.
Browsing a few websites might save you some time and allow you to determine yourself if they have some residential/historic experience. Just be forewarned that they might not show many "small" projects on their website.
In this economy, you should be able to find some willing to help you. |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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These are good arguments.
Mind if I borrow them? |
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