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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 393
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 Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: Complement to PC/WT |
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When taking your 2D PC/WT into 3D, a number of you use Sketchup. Great program.
Some might be interested in Bonzai. It's now out of beta.
You can find a bunch of instruction videos that show how it works at the below URL.
http://www.bonzai3d.com/bonzai3d_video_640N.html
If your internet connection is slower --
http://www.bonzai3d.com/bonzai3d_video_320N.html
If you have a couple hours or so, it might be worth your time to view all the videos.
For more involved modeling, the Nurbs Surfaces video might be of interest.
For those doing remodels, or additions, you might find the Match View video interesting.
There are 35 videos in all. Use the arrow buttons along the bottom right and left to view the different videos available for viewing.
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 746
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Steve,
I spent some time last night looking at this. It's clearly an advanced piece of software and a lot of work by very experienced programmers has gone into this.
At the same time, I find myself thinking "why would I ever want something like this?"
Alfred
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 393
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Alfred,
Allow me to do what I do so well --- ramble a bit.
One thing I've experienced is, that many people simply can't read a set of 2D plans all that well. But give them a picture (i.e. a perspective or isometric 3D image), and it often seems to help them envision the plan ----- though some aren't capable of seeing what you have planned, until the carpet is installed and the furniture is moved in.
This 3D stuff comes in handy all the way from tradesman viewing a detail in 3D, to planning commisions viewing finished renderings or animated walk throughs.
I mean, with the Match View function of Bonzai, modeling the outside of an addition for a prospective client, where the client will be able to see in 3D, what you have intended --- this can be pretty convincing. 3D can be the difference at times, in selling a job or not.
A number that become half decently proficient with something like form•Z , Sketchup, or now Bonzai, may find it easier to draw in full 3D --- being able to rotate around a project and work on the model from different angles, rather than being constrained to one view as when working in 2.5D. Also, if I want to model something on the backside of a part, I prefer to let the program resolve all the lines that are to be viewed in Hidden Line or Shaded views. And, it takes a bit more time or skill to draw in 2.5D, than it takes me to model in 3D.
I tend to view autodessys's stuff as the 3D equivalent of what PC/WT does for 2D. Both have a ton of tools. They both offer numerous ways of accomplishing a task.
I don't view PC/WT as being competitive with something like Bonzai, but rather complementary. In fact with this combo of tools (PC/WT & form•Z or Bonzai), you have some of, if not the best set of tools in each DIMENSION. The best 2D. The best 3D. PC/WT gives me MANY ways to approach a project --- same with form•Z or now Bonzai.
What I'm saying is that I like options --- many ways of doing something -- and with the combination of these programs (PC/WT, form•Z or Bonzai), I get a ton of power.
Now Sketchup is a genius of a program, in what can be done with a limited set of tools. And seems I read there are add ons also. But something like Bonzai gives you a much more complete set of tools, right out of the box, although maybe a bigger learning curve then the basic Sketchup (without the plug-ins). And Bonzai gives the convenience of not having to deal with plug-ins in order to have a more powerful program. Also, some of those tools that Bonzai has, have got to be faster than working with Sketchup, that is, once you get semi-proficient with Bonzai.
All this said, I still think some of the best looking 3D (2.5D actually) is what has been done with PC/WT.
http://engsw.com/drawroom/TechIllus/MarkRhodes/MarkRhodes.html
As a painting can emphasize better than a photo at times, so can good illustrations get the point across better than many computer renderings. I just wish I was quicker at 2.5 stuff, enough so, where I could draw up a number of different views using 2.5D, as quick as I can model in 3D.
Now as to preferring one over the other, that is 2D (or 2.5D), over 3D or visa versa --- I think this is nonsense. They both have their place. At times, I want to only work in 2D. At times only in 3D. At times in both --- going from one to the other ---- starting in 3D at times, then going to 2D or visa versa.
All said ------ Bonzai is just one more arrow in the quiver.
One thing -- autodessys products do lack in not having 3D dimensioning to this day, though I was told that form•Z ver. 7 would get 3D dimensioning. Up to this point --- this has been a big drawback with form•Z & Bonzai.
Steve
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Alfred Scott
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 746
Location: Richmond, VA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Steve,
Steve Mouzon was after me to 'move WildTools to SketchUp' saying that the drawing tools were incredibly basic. I see his point considering the very limited ways of drawing the basic objects.
But when I looked at what's involved in programming for SketchUp, I cooled off real fast. The only way to write tools is with Ruby, which is an interpreted language. And SketchUp's 'Edit Window' does not have enough fields to do a creditable job.
But looking at Bonzai, I'm impressed that they have done a complete set of drawing tools. What you can't tell from looking at the videos is whether it's a hard program to learn. There's a hell of a lot of stuff in the program, so my guess is that it would take a while to become proficient.
I'm going to be interested in seeing how everyone reacts to in2Space when they get it out. The ability to copy in PowerCADD, paste in in2Space and then go right to work extruding is going to be pretty appealing. I've been involved in this a bit: they had based the whole program on Copy and Paste from PowerCADD using Vector PICT, but in PC8 the clipboard is PDF and they were up a creek without a paddle. I got involved and working with everyone got them what they needed so they can Copy and Paste from PC8 now, and it's even better because they have the same double-precision accuracy maintained in the Copy and Paste operation.
Alfred
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paulprd
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 77
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 954
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Some might be interested in Bonzai. |
How Goes It?: Why? Bonzai is just an untested copy of SketchUp. What it does do is include a lot of tools that should be included in SU , but have been surpassd by Ruby development (something Bonzai doesn't have at present).
Rubies (add-ons using the Ruby language) are very advanced in SU, Alfred, providing extensive interactive modeling and parametric features, the sort of things PowerCADD never had (in the 2d equivalent). Also SU has components (a sort of combination group and "reference drawing") and now dynamic components (components that can be modified in sensible ways with inputs or mouse clicks--AND created by users). SU has gone where PowerCADD once could but, like Bonzai, is now a closed system.
The dismissal of SU here is baffling. The main complaints that SU users have are how the program slows on complex (high polygon) models and the way that Google, once taking over the program, is shutting users off from information and the development process. In general they love the program and the Ruby development.
I met a client about a pergola design yesterday. I will draw a model in SU about as fast as could do something in PowerCADD to get the idea across. In PowerCADD what I can do is some collection of lines for something like this (a post and beam construction). An elevation or plan is less meaningful to the client. The SU model will show him how it'll look from different angles, even show the sun shading. PowerCADD will be great to make the construction drawings, but very slow and less effectual for an initial presentation of the concept. I did this sort of thing in Wildtools 3D and SU is an extension in that direction.
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Peter B |
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 393
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| pbacot wrote: | | Quote: | | Some might be interested in Bonzai. |
How Goes It?: Why? Bonzai is just an untested copy of SketchUp. |
Hi Peter --
Bonzai tools may work more to the liking of some.
There is a video at the URL below. It may take a little time to load.
http://gallery.me.com/shubin#100407/Reshape-20vs--20Push-Pull&bgcolor=black
Maybe there was a way that Sketchup could have done what Bonzai did in the video. It just wasn't something I was able to find intuitively.
My opinion --- Bonzai works the way things should when Reshaping or doing Push / Pull.
Aside from 2 or 3 tools in Bonzai's Reshape row, which are based on Sketchup's Push/Pull, there are around 106 other tools in Bonzai's main tool bar, that are form•Z tools, not to mention all the palettes around the drawing window and the menu items also.
So those 3 tools in the Reshape row (based on Sketchup's Push/Pull) amount to around 1 or 2 percent of Bonzai.
Most of the other 99 or 98 percent of Bonzai tools, palettes, menu items, commands, are form•Z ---- a program that has been around since 1991.
But my feeling is --- the more the merrier.
Everyone finds what works for them.
I like the convenience and power of Bonzai in not having to deal with a ton of plug-ins.
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Steve
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GaryV
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 281
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Will In2Space be able to do high end renderings that can be used for presentations, competitions, etc.? Forgive me if so, but the examples I have seen appear rather crude and rudimentary as opposed to polished presentation ready models.
If the capability is there, will it be via 3rd party tools, plug-ins, direct export to a rendering app or?
Finally, is it a surface or solid modeler? As an (unfortunately, ex-) user of DesignWorkshop, I find the surface modeling methodology tough to get accustomed to. I have played around with SU and can use the basic tools but really cannot use it effectively although I have not used it a lot. Maybe it is just a roadblock in the brain that won't let me get there although I normally pick up new software very easily.
From the few videos I looked at, Bonsai looks very capable but I agree the learning curve is a bit steep and no one can afford that these days.
-Gary
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 954
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| How Goes It wrote: | | pbacot wrote: | | Quote: | | Some might be interested in Bonzai. |
How Goes It?: Why? Bonzai is just an untested copy of SketchUp. |
Hi Peter --
Bonzai tools may work more to the liking of some.
I like the convenience and power of Bonzai in not having to deal with a ton of plug-ins.
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Steve |
OK, I see you've been looking into it. I didn't know why you were suggesting we download videos and all. I agree on the plug-in business for SU. Some SketchUp users are discussing creating a self-loading package that contains the most important plug-ins to make it easier for people to get a fuller version of SU. That's one thing that has helped me in SU--the community being on hand to solve your problems right away and the ability to learn from countless videos and tutorials. Sort of like PowerCADD (minus the tutorials and videos). I've gotten further with it than I did with DW.
Thanks for the info. I think the competition (both ways) is working in our favor.
Peter
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Peter B |
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paulprd
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Hi Gary,
If you mean photorealistic AKA Artlantis style, not in the first release. We plumed for an SU style render. But we do have a high end opengl and then the sketchy opengl render. I have put up recently exmaples of the sketch (we call it PAINTER) render as I think they are rather cool. I have attached a high end opengl image. Also a very dense image with fills, right from PC. As fills are polys we can use them to extrude for massing. 2 Clicks to extrude a poly, select and an ok. Also an experiment with the new extrude, the church like building. Took around 10 mins to make.
We are planning to do export to Artlantis in v2. If you have not used Artlantis it is without doubt the fastest raytracer I have ever come across. Slightly eccentric in interface but easy to use.
We are a solids modeler. Also where possible we are parametric. Eg. If you build a wall, its controlled by 2 settings, ht and thickness. If you change these they reflect through all walls made with this type. Same for doors, windows roofs etc. We make a wall with 2 clicks start and end. unlike SU walls have a thickness so you can produce 3D plans. No doubt there will be a lot of features we dont have in v1. If we put everything in that we could we would never launch  I remember SU coming out a few years ago now and dismissed it at the time. But its grown to be clever tool. I also cant quite get on with it. Tooo much snapping to what it thinks you want to do for me.
If you are expert in FormZ you wont use in2s or SU. But if you want a very easy to use modeler and intimate connectivity with PCadd, a simple cut and paste of anything is all that is required, then In2s is filling the bill. If anyone has any drawings would be happy to have them to test what we do. We cant make everything you will come up with but we are covering a lot of ground and getting more sophisticated as we get towards v1.
all the best
Paul
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GaryV
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 281
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Paul,
Thanks for the reply. I own a very old version of Artlantis. Not even sure if it is upgradable. I was using Artifice's Online RenderCity alternative a lot which was based on Radiance and I liked the results. Not sure if it is still an industry standard but it might be worth talking to Kevin Matthews about it if you know him as I always thought the online option of letting someone else's server do all the grunt work was good. Of course that was before all the wiz-bang Intel machines.
I am unemployed right now so I could do a little beta testing. Is that an option at this point? If I need to sign a NDA I certainly can. I know developers do not like to announce release dates but is a tentative time frame available yet? If we need to do this offline you can get me at veasy at mac.com
I do like the simplicity of the cut and paste from PC>In2Space. Doesn't get any easier that that!!
Gary
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paulprd
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Hi Gary,
Sorry to hear you are unemployed, but things are appearing to be picking up so hopefully not too long!
Yes we were (well are) the distributor for DW but as you know its not been developed lately so does not work on new machines so not done much activity with it of late. Indeed the Radiance render engine is fabulous! As you say with new machines speed is less of a problem. I do rather like Artlantis as its so fast, indeed as you know you get a real time feedback of the the ray traced image. The latest version has radiosity, again almost real time.
Be happy to have you as a tester! Drop me a line at
paul@prdsoftware.co.uk
and we can sign you up. We are literally this week properly ready for testers, couple of other willing victims are waiting a copy too. Apologies to Dale and Patrick who are waiting for a copy!
Cheers
Paul
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How Goes It
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 393
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