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kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 133
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 Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Ya know Ross...I sometimes think you fill your posts with useless jargin to hide the fact that you can be full of shit.
I understand, I think, what you are getting at..and you had me sided with you for a while...then you through residential designers under the bus again.
We have proven that residential designers and architects won't always agree and that some think they are superior to others....but saying that a residential designer can't be creative because they haven't had the training and education is a bit assenine (I know I probably spelled that wrong)...
I went and checked out your profile and website Ross. With no true offense meant, when looking at your residential stuff, I didn't really see a wave of "creativity" there.
The only true new designs I see coming in these days (residentially speaking) are the modularly designed homes that you see in the high profile magazines, that the homeowner has millions invested in.
Let's face it, not everyone can sink millions of dollars in a house.
And to be honest, I think the modular designs are extremely UGLY homes. These homes stand out from the crowd and look very industrial...and boxey.
Alot of us have fallen into a reinvent the wheel type design form. We may all start out with an awe inspiring design, but in the end, it retorts back into a somewhat familier facade from the outside. this is because people are comfortable with the design and look that is already out there.
Maybe your clients can afford to come to you and just say, "here is a bag of money...design me something", but the kind of people most of us deal with can't. They want a design that they are comfortable with.
My customers come to me with ideas in mind and then I expand off of those.
The goal of the designer should be to put the clients in their dream home at a price they can afford.
We can do this by reducing the foorprint of the home and making the most use out of the space we are given to work with.
I agree that we need to start looking at reducing the size and impact that these homes have on the environment, but I don't necessarily think that this calls for abstractly creative designs...
Now, designing with creative material is a whole nother idea.....
Ok - now I may have been a little more focused on the fact that you made comments about my trade as opposed to capturing your ideas in the opening part of your posting and if I did I apologize.
I truly think that we could all learn something from the other regardless if they are certified or not. All we have to do is get all of this "I'm better than you mentality" behind us...
For instance, I bring to the table, experiemce in structural design and actual construction experience.
You bring to the table the education that should support alternate materials and a better understanding of "art" in design.
Keep in mind that we are just speaking of the design itself and not the project management that follows after the design is approved and signed off on... |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Maybe your clients can afford to come to you and just say, "here is a bag of money...design me something", but the kind of people most of us deal with can't. They want a design that they are comfortable with. |
kmapro makes a good point here.
In fact, I'd go as far as to say the best designer can offer a solution which doesn't take a bag of money. But it looks and feels as if it did.
Residential designers are more acclimated to that environment, and even though no one has put it into words, they appreciate that much more than having to standing back and listen to an architect drone on and on about the wonderfully artful designs he can come up with when given a bag of money.
We come from humbler beginnings, and maybe we don't have a framed master's degree to wave around in front of potential customers, but you know what? People don't like it.
Blow your own horn too loudly, and people start putting their hands over their ears. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| From Feb 22, 2007 ..... this very same thread....... wrote: |
It seems the same players keep repeating ourselves on the very same subject and enter the very same confrontation, and I suppose the passion inspired arguments are fueled by the fact that there is a public audience that we feel is being influenced by our posts. It's a strange phenomenon really... |
'nuff said. |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Architects pay a vital role when it comes to unconventional design.
They can double check engineering calculations and put their stamp of approval on the design.
But most residential design calculations are pretty standard.
So a review from the building official pretty much covers it.
I'm happy that you have a gold plated "Approved by the AIA" stamp sitting in your desk drawer.
I keep a little dinner bell in mine.
If I ever need you to confirm one of my designs, I'll ring it.
(Maybe you should have agreed to a group hug, and I wouldn't have to embarass you like this.) |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe you should do a search for Residential Designer and my name as the author. You will find numerous occasions were I directed people to a residential designer. So to do your little call-out with me is .... well..... kinda silly.
BTW - AIA is a professional organization. Not all architects are members of the AIA. I personally am not a member. If fact - I have a lot of issues with the AIA and was VERY involved in the local chapter when I was younger.
FWIW - My Master's is not framed - but my four licenses and NCARB certification are framed.
More than once on this forum I have discussed Jack Bloodgood and the AIA. Mr. Bloodgood is an architect who started a plans service so that people - no matter budget or income - could afford an architect-design home. The AIA wanted to run him out of the organization. Search my posts on Bloodgood. So I certainly don't have an issue with plan services. BTW - Mr. Bloodgood's firm is quite large now and still has a plan service division. You should look it up.... I think you'll be quite embarrassed to compare your work to these guys.
I try to be courtesy..... but its remains a tough task.
So ring your little bell all you want......  |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Jack- who?
Youngblood? Blackbeard?
Home buyers don't want a history lesson. They want a place to live. |
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kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Giving phansford some credit here - he has pointed people who have asked to a knowledgable residential designer. I have witnessed it first hand.
I really don't think phansford has a problem with residential designers. He, much like I do, just has a bad taste in his mouth for some based brief encounters he has had...most of which is why I am sure he doesn't care for me very much.
Case in point. I don't mind architects. What I do mind is architects who are conceited and think that nobody else can do anything.
Architects, for the most part, do know what they are doing. Some of their practices are questionable at times as I am sure that some of mine are.
Phansford doesn't care for me very much because of my attitude and what he perceives my true thoughts and intentions are. Admittedly, I do have an attitude, but it comes from am annoyance of boastfull people. I think that his perception of my true thoughts and intentions are a bit skewed though - but I guess that is a matter of opinion.
I can't really say that he has been boastfull, other than to maybe make a point here and there - and the point was well taken. He is actually one of the few architects I have heard of that has been in the trenches..one that could actually build what he designs.
I truly respect him. I have always admired his composure and tenacity during our heated debates.
See I don't hate architects. What I hate are architects who think I am not qualified to design given my experience and knowledge. The ones who think they are better than I am just because they have a degree.
What they don't understand is that the degree doesn't make them a good architect. That just makes them a "paper" architect.
Any architect who actually knows what they are doing and one that can show someone how something should be built. Show someone else how to do their job (as phansford mentioned showing a mason how to trial - or something like that) - These sort of architects have my utmost respect.
In my opinion, there is a huge difference in knowing how something is done because you have seen someone else do it or you have read a "how-to" article on it and someone who knows how to do something because they HAVE done it.
Truth be known, I don't know if Ross knows what he is doing or not. I haven't really had an opportunity to get to learn him.
He comes in here and throws a bunch of big words around that he thinks makes him sound smart when in fact it just makes him sound egomaniacal and degrading - which does very little to help his cause.
He comes across as the kind of person that sits at his desk and keeps his head buried in his checkbook and looks down across the top of his glasses (not necessaryily literal) at the "drawers" that come to ask him questions. He also seems like the type that would shutter at the thought of getting out at a muddy work site because he would get his dockers dirty...
I could be totally wrong, but this is how he represents hisself.... |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 832
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| kmapro wrote: | | ........ I don't hate architects. What I hate are architects who think I am not qualified to design given my experience and knowledge. The ones who think they are better than I am just because they have a degree. |
Everyone can bring value to the project. There are tons of people associated with any construction project and each of those people bring something to the table.
Not to start some lovefest...... and if you come over here for a hug, I'll smack you.  But I (as an architect) want people who are passionate about their craft. Kmapro seems to be that guy on engineered wood products. He would be the guy we would want helping us finalize a structural system. He would probably be surprised about the conversations I have with people in his same position who are designing the wood truss systems and steel stud systems on my current project. We want and encourage their input. Again.... you come over wanting to do the group hug thing - I smack ya
ie - We have always been told that a hip girder needs to be 5 feet from the face of the building on a hip roof. Even our structural engineer works under that assumption and he is over 75 years old. The truss designer - who is not a licensed engineer - was able to arrange the trusses on our current project that eliminated a W 10 x 22 steel beam. (We're doing this funky bent corner entry where a higher roof need to cantilever out and not apply all of its load on a lower roof - which happens to be an open corner of the building - its a traditional looking building... just has this stupid corner entry) Anyway - the truss designer knows what he can do with his products and we valued his opinion.
There are a ton of people - unfortunately - both contractors, suppliers, architects who seem to want to devalue others within the project team. That is how crappy buildings get designed and constructed. |
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kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Don't worry Phansford - I am not the hugging type
I could not agree more with what you said. Each person involved in a project is important. From the concept through the reality.
Unfortunately, we live in a world where almost everything seems to be a competition.
I am passionate about what I do - both as a day time job (the engineered wood) and as a designer of residential structures within my knowledge arena. This is why I get hot headed when someone "attacks" what I do.
There is no way I would ever try to design some of the structures that an architect puts out. Mainly because it goes beyond the realm of what I could build. I am not one to design anything that I couldn't personally build or explain to someone how to build it.
Now, I will say that some architects do not consult with the other people involved in the project and their designs just do not work. Which is where we get in to some of my frustrations as an engineered wood designer...BUT, I also get stuff from residential designers that are way the hell out there too. |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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What?
No hug?
You're going to make Mr. Bigglesworth upset.
And when Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset...
PEOPLE DIE!
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2174
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Ahh, feel the love.
_________________
-Chris Stewart
http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
The B/CS Home Design Blog |
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