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modjohn
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Kansas, USA
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Green Building Materials? |
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What building materials can you build the most energy efficient house with and do you consider these materials as “green”? In answering the question, there are several considerations: The climate will have extremes of heat and cold, materials must be available today, most materials would be shipped in from other areas (purely local materials are not an option for large scale projects), and the materials are applicable for single family as well as multifamily dwellings.
In order to reduce the amount of energy we use, we will need to dramatically reduce the amount of energy we use in our homes. The structure of the home is a major consideration for energy conservation. In considering new/future construction, what materials should we move to in order to help conserve energy?
Most building materials are not going to be perfectly green. Most will have elements that contain petroleum products or others that consume large amounts of energy in their manufacture such as concrete. Most will also have to be shipped substantial distances. But, in the long run, which materials will last the longest and conserve the most energy over their life span? |
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Antisthenes
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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the Adobe Mud under your feet
the Straw waste from wheat fields
the EPS blow from trash binded with soy oils
used tires
reclaimed timber
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csintexas
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1303
Location: USA
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Antisthenes
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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my past boss edited The Last Straw for years
sustainable principles are very old, looking to the ways many indigenous peoples solve their problems based on the environments they live and then also looking at the other extreme of the high tech inventions making a mixture and there lies our solutions i think
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modjohn
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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I really like straw bale construction. I had seriously considered it for our home, but for a number of reasons we used ICFs. I know there are huge amounts of waste straw available from wheat, rice, etc. But I wonder if there would really be enough to replace lumber as a primary building material?
Straw has great insulation value and would be applicable to all but the wettest climates. I also wonder how straw would compare to lumber in large-scale projects in regard to construction efficiency?
I do not believe Adobe is applicable for with extended cold periods. I know it has thermal mass, but I believe its insulation value is too low for a cold climate.
Wood of course is a great renewable product. We just need to use it in better ways. |
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Antisthenes
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: |
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with the right solar orientation and trombe walls adobe is the best for cold high desert and low hot desert (that gets very cold at night too)
because it stores the heat for the night and slowly releases it, unlike other heavier masses that loose it fast.
ICF's i am not a fan at all did you see what SABS are? the concrete mass in the center of the insulation serves little if any purpose and is like a overkill on structural mass i feel. much like getting a overdose of simple proteins from eating meat. the idea to put the mass on the outside of insulation is far better(to protect the 2 masses from transferring/bridging to each other) i feel for that type of insulation/mass hybrid wall system. much like the Omni Block has proved in tests.
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birgco
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I would cast a top vote for blown cellulose insulation as probably one of the "greenest" building materials one could use. Because it is manufactured from recycled newspaper, it really captures the true spirit of an environmentally friendly material. It's also a big plus that it fills in cracks and crevices around pipes and wires and it usually doesn't require a vapor barrier which is good for minimizing moisture problems.
I agree with the point about some good building materials will not be totally green but because of their structural attributes and longevity, they may still be the best choice. Poured concrete and structural steel fall into this category.
Great idea as a resource and a valuable exercise for anyone involved in the building/design biz. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dare I say? Hemp? 
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The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
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modjohn
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Antistheness - sorry, not familiar with SABS. I searched Google, but did not find anything that seemed appropriate. I do not agree with your opinion about ICFs. I believe the thermal mass of ICFs does add to the performance of the product, increasing it beyond the pure insulation value of the foam. ICFs cannot directly absorb the energy from the sun, but the thermal mass does buffer the temperature swings experienced by the building.
I looked at Omni Blocks on the web. I believe ICFs are superior in several ways. ICFs typically contain more insulation value than is capable with Omni Block from what I could see. The block I used has 5 1\2” of EPS. Also, it looks like Omni Block has concrete web connections which will experience thermal bridging (at least that is what I saw in some images on their site). Most ICFs do not have this problem. ICFs also create a much stronger wall system. But, as a downside, I expect that ICFs are more expensive.
Birgco – I also like cellulose insulation, much better than fiberglass. I especially like it when it is sprayed on wet. It adheres to the walls with no chance of settling. Cellulose applied in the correct density will not experience the convective cycles that can occur with fiberglass. I guess it is probably best when combined with 2x6 walls using something like the advanced framing system.
I have not seen hemp as a building product. How is it used or is it just a builders aid? |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I've never used hemp as a building material, or as an architectural aid. I was asking a question myself. Am I down to the stems and seeds of idea's? 
Rope is a building material. Fabrics. I was going to use some hemp fabric for an underlayment in a wood floor. Put the wood floor on in a puddle of linseed oil with the fabric. Couldn't find the hemp clothe in time, and used a cheese clothe, and that works fine too. muslin clothe.
ICF's are ugly, silly and don't make much sense, in my professional opinion. They bore me enough to never want to know the science of them. Concrete is too wonderful a building material to be used in such a pour (poor) application. Form work is becoming a rare art.
Rope and sticks.
Derek
_________________
The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
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Antisthenes
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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SABS is new it just got ICC
think 100% EPS (monolithically, floors ceilings walls) with a GFRC structural skin
http://strataus.com/
i see it as a trade off the amount of labor the access to witch tools and resources
you can go simple or complex low tech or hi tech.
adobe, you have the right sand:clay ratio soil
straw, access to straw bale waste decision: post and beam or load bearing
pumice-crete, forms and portland required, and being close to old volcano
SABS, SIPS, ICF, Rastra: the many EPS methods
the reason i will continue to make the case for internal insulation is that yes while you may have a huge mass in a ICF that stays a more consistent temperature it is not working for you in passive heating and cooling but rather just providing a stabilizing effect that i would imagine would be negated by a few cracks around doors and/or windows. where as the method of putting insulation inside a wall like is done in a Tilt up wall system with a layer of foam in the middle or a SABS with it's mass skin and internal insulation or the Omni block with its mass faces (interior/ext) that have a offset bridge provides you with 2 faces one that you work to keep the temp you want inside and the other that has the heated or cooled temp from outside that is protected from the face you put your energy to make the temp you desire.
those are my thoughts on this and tests are in order.
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The most necessary/useful piece of learning is that which unlearns what is untrue: 'evil'
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modjohn
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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I took a look at the SABS web site. Interesting stuff. Kind of a high tech SIP. I would like to know how it compares in cost to SIPs. Do you know how hard the finish is? How would exterior siding materials be applied if required? I realize that a stucco type coating would be easier, but this may not be acceptable in all cases. Also, something like SABS may be strong, but it would not be adequate for applications such as a school building.
Regarding SIPS, I have always had a concern regarding the long-term stability of SIPs used as a roof panel. At some point, the roofing material will develop a leak and allow water to slowly start seeping into the SIP. Because of the structure of the panel, this leak may not be evident for some extended period during which the integrity of a large portion of the panel could be compromised. Since the strength of the SIP depends on the integrity of both skins, couldn’t there be the potential for a collapse of the roof panel? This would be even more likely if the outer skin of the panel was saturated and a heavy snow load was applied. |
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Antisthenes
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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the thing i don't like about SIPS or my own formed pumice-crete is that it is not monolithic like the SABS system
this could also be a issue on CMU and Adobe in the case of poor grouting and in all cases on wood framing, LEAKS. (build it tight ventilate right to have maximized energy performance)
the GFRC skin is one tough cookie, nearly impossible to crack w/o diamond cutting tools, the reason it is a structural skin standing up to earthquakes and hurricanes
if you look at the images of the Payson home on strata's site i think you can see how they build the roof panels. they make them like long narrow SIPS sorta then forklift them up and then spray another skin over that on both sides.
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The most necessary/useful piece of learning is that which unlearns what is untrue: 'evil'
may be acquired, Happiness through virtue which is based on knowledge!/? |
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