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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Lexington, VA
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Home design software for non professionals |
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I've noticed several posts concerning the conflict between a customer's ideas and the architect's experience and knowledge.
Like many of you, I've had to design homes to meet a customer's demands, only to have them complain later.
I thought a simple solution would be to get the customer involved in the initial design process. This would give them a better concept of space, and help them see the true sizes of cabinets, furniture, windows, and doors.
My question is what software would you recommend?
It must be simple to use, does not need to have professional (full) CAD capabilities, and could run on a simple windows based system.
Then, printout on 8-1/2 x 11 paper.
This process would solve two problems. First, architects and residential designers aren't wasting time (as described in earlier posts) drawing several plans, only to face rejection and or continous changes.
Second, the homebuyer is able to see if a design works or not, automatically. The software would show him things like an oversized roof or inadequate kitchen space even before he consults with the architect.
Consultation with the architect would follow to catch problems which can't been seen by the untrained eye.
Once the concept is laid out, and communication is clear, the architect can move forward, and prepare the professional drawings himself.
(Remember, this is not a debate about whether or not a customer should be involved in the initial design. It's only a question asking, what is the most inexpensive, user-friendly software you would recommend?) |
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lekizz
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 954
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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Aren't clients normally involved in the design process?! After all, they are the ones who are financing the project and probably (in the scenario you describe) will be living in the finished article.
Like you say, there have been a number of contributions on this forum, of varying quality, by people who have drawn floor plans for their new home. The "oversized roof" and "inadequate kitchen" are the sort of issues that would be pointed out by any competent designer. I don't think a computer programme exists that could capture the knowledge, experience and imagination of an architect or professional designer at the touch of a button. |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Lekizz,
Does this mean you recommend Punch, 3D Home Architect, or Google Sketch-Up? |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 488
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Home design software for non professionals |
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We have had clients come to us with floor plans from books, magazines, and whatever cheesy "non-professional" design software they have purchased at Staples. I have yet - in over 20 years of practice - used any of these ideas in the final design and for a multitude of reasons.
With magazines and books...... there are always changes to this room and that room and can the house be flipped and can a different "style" be used on the front elevation. So these client provided ideas become nothing more than a visual program for us to begin our design process.
The stuff from the "non-professional" design software is typically the same problem..... just add the problem of the client having an attachment to a "design" they have created that does not meet code - the site - constructability - you name it.
We have been very sucessful in taking client ideas as visual programs and developing designs totally different then what was originally presented by the client. The client understands the hows, whats, and whys of how the final design came to being.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | My question is what software would you recommend?It must be simple to use, does not need to have professional (full) CAD capabilities, and could run on a simple windows based system.
Then, printout on 8-1/2 x 11 paper. |
We tell our clients to save their money.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: |
I thought a simple solution would be to get the customer involved in the initial design process. This would give them a better concept of space, and help them see the true sizes of cabinets, furniture, windows, and doors. |
We have developed a design process that allows are clients to be involved in the design process. Design Process is something that is not taught at a 2 yr college or the local tech school. Generally speaking, this is the big difference in a trained professional architect and a "typical" residential designer.
Definition: Architecture is a process that allows our clients to make informed decisions.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | | This process would solve two problems. First, architects and residential designers aren't wasting time (as described in earlier posts) drawing several plans, only to face rejection and or continous changes. |
If you use a tried and true process, there are rarely times when you have developed designs that do not meet the clients expectations. We are not shy to ask our clients to cut pictures out of magazines of thinks they like. Cabinets, plumbing fixtures, windows, maybe its a photo of an entire living room or bedroom. This is a visual task and a picture is worth a thousand words. Many times we end up with a folder filled with clippings from our clients.
I had one client who wanted their kitchen to look like Tony Soprano's (actually the openess of it)..... so we bought the first season on DVD to study the space.
Part of the problem is convincing clients that the design will take time and we will not be finished in a few weeks. There are lots of questions to be asked and answered.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | | Second, the homebuyer is able to see if a design works or not, automatically. The software would show him things like an oversized roof or inadequate kitchen space even before he consults with the architect. |
Most clients will not be able to determine if their design works or not. Again.... constructability, codes, site limitations, zoning.....
For example - Clients will design first floor spaces that can't be spanned with typical materials (locally that is either 2 x 10's or 9 1/4" TJI's). Availablity of materials and using standard (local traditions) methods and materials is critical in most home construction. Remember - most houses are not necessarily unique.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | Consultation with the architect would follow to catch problems which can't been seen by the untrained eye.
Once the concept is laid out, and communication is clear, the architect can move forward, and prepare the professional drawings himself. |
Basically - whether this is your intent or not - you are making the architect nothing more than a draftsman. Architects are trained to design buildings.... they are not draftsman. You are advocating that people hire a professional who has years of training and experience and not utilize that knowledge and experience to their advantage. Architects make expensive draftsman.
When someone comes to our firm with set ideas about their project and it is clear they will not be flexibile or willing to listen to our advice, we will not invest in their project. There is no reason for me to enter into a relationship that will not only be frustrating to us, but to the client as well. If they are looking for draftsman - we can direct them to such a person or to a residential designer who is willing to slavishly give them what they want - even if it does not work.
The client (might) end up happy and remember our honesty and return to us when they determine they want an architect and not a draftsman.
It is important for us to educate our clients to the value our services bring to their project. Not everyone gets it. Thats fine with us... there are plenty of options for people to use in getting a house designed/built. (stock plans, production houses, residential designers..... and yes even an architect)
More than once we can terminated a relationship when the client is unwilling to listen to our advice. (I am not going to sacrifice our good name and standing in the community because someone does not want to build to code or demand we lessen the quality of our work and there are plenty of builders out there who also will not lend their name to certain ill-advised and ill-designed projects.)
Top quality builders will not do certain types of houses as it is counter to their market and reputation. Some will create second companies to handle lower-end products. That's called good business. Of course when an architect does not want to be engaged in a project that is counter to their market or reputation... they are called egotists.  |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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OK, Graph paper and templates, then.
I'm afraid my question is being avoided.
Allow me to restate the problem:
Non professionals have a difficult time understanding scale when requesting a design.
When I point out they have drawn "miniature" fixtures, and that their "huge bathroom" with walk in shower and jacuzzi, is in reality barely large enough to hold a single sink and toilet.
Even a 2ft wide doorway will knock into something when opened. (Many people tend to sketch these too small as well.)
The problem is this: When the most basic concepts, such as consistant scale is brought to their attention, the customer feels as though the architect is starting an arguement with them.
"Why won't they give me the space I dreamed of?"
We know the ABC's of design. Let's not forget the average customer has a difficult time understanding something that we can take for granted.
If the customer has some kind of guidelines, they could see for themselves if they will have enough room for their furniture, halls wide enough to walk down, room for a double sink in a bathroom, sufficient kitchen counter space to prepare their meals, etc.
I would never assume that non professionals would be able to handle loads, spans, or other building code guidelines. That is what architects spend years, studying.
Simply put, pointing out an impossible soncept is an open invitation for arguement, especially when addressed verbally, one person talking to another person.
Therefore, I have decided to offer my customers some kind of tool or template to help them get a better understanding of what they are asking for.
This post has nothing to do with how anyone feels about their own professional ethics.
I simply asked what is the most user-friendly software available to the untrained consumer?
This is initial phase, only.
Afterwards, I can move forward with creating their layout.
Again, my question is:
What is the best, most inexpensive, user-friendly, floorplan design software available for the non-professional to put their ideas on paper? |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 488
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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I understand your comments and questions....... and again - I do not support directing my clients to a cheesy home designer CAD program. It is a waste of their money.
We physically draw their ideas and demonstrate why they do not work..... It might require me getting a cut sheet of the whirlpool tub that shows the dimensions and giving it to them.
I have had enough people come into my office with home designer CAD plans that do not work and have all of the issues you are referring and we simply show why their idea is not physically possible. THAT is part of our charge as architects..... you can't just tell some one something does not work..... it has to be shown.
So YES I understand your question and NO I do not recommend in any way, shape or form referring our clients to purchase a $30 home designer CAD program. |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Your clients have chosen well.
I am happy they have a professional like yourself to help them through the many weeks of developing a conceptual plan.
My customers choose me because I offer a price based on square footage of the home. I can't afford to spend several weeks designing and redesigning a 1500 sq ft, 4-bedroom house.
I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons, where a car company allowed Homer to design his own car. Of course building costs were way over budget.
I have recommended architects to customers who need extra guidence, and will continue to do so.
But I view my services as the "fast-food" of architecture.
I offer my greatest respect to your profession.
However, I also must make a living, and saving time helps.
You mentioned a cad system that they can buy for as little as $30.
Is it easy for the untrained customer to use?
What is the name of it?
I also like your idea of using a cut sheet for items such as a whirlpool tub, to give them an idea of the dimensions.
This is what I am talking about. Using some kind of tool as a guideline to communicate better with the customer. |
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lekizz
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 954
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: |
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Somehow I doubt Phansford spends "many weeks" developing a "conceptual plan" with his clients  Knowledge of space, ergonomics, structure and precedent will probably mean a competent architect could draw a home plan in a few hours, let alone days, or weeks. That is what a client pays for when they employ an architect - knowledge, imagination, experience and the ability to communicate the idea effectively to a non-professional (client) through words, drawings or models.
Your first question asked whether there was software that would allow non-designers to be "able to see if a design works or not, automatically". That is different from asking whether there is cheap CAD software available! Google Sketchup is *free* to download, we use it at work professionally as our workaday 3D software, it is simple to draw accurate shapes and extrude them to whatever length/height we want. But it doesn't tell us, in the real physical world, what will work and what won't. Neither will a $30 CAD package.
If you just want something cheap and easily understandable to draw lines, then your idea of a pencil, ruler and graph paper is highly recommended  |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 488
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Checkpoint43 wrote: | | My customers choose me because I offer a price based on square footage of the home. I can't afford to spend several weeks designing and redesigning a 1500 sq ft, 4-bedroom house. |
You need to determine if you are being properly compensated for your services. If you are not getting the time to do the work properly, you will push yourself to finish thing quickly and increase you chance for mistakes.
And don't think that I don't cross check my design fees based on $/SF and % of Construction. If your clients are builders or are being directed to by builders - then you are nothing more than a commodity and you are not considered as providing a service.
The 4-6 months a project is in the office is not necessarily equal to a fee of 6 months of my salary. It takes that because our clients take that long to make decisions. I can finish the schematic designs with 30-45 days of signing the contract - then they sit on the design for 2 months.
Some projects go much faster - which is better for us. The shorter the design schedule the more money you make.
Also - what is the going rate in your area.... are you the cheapest... or can you elevate your fee to match your competition. If someone else is getting $5/SF to design a house.... then so should you. What will the market bear.... not "how cheap can I be before I have to quit and be a greeter at Wal-Mart"
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | I have recommended architects to customers who need extra guidence, and will continue to do so.
But I view my services as the "fast-food" of architecture. |
Lets not devalue our services or our possession in the industry. "Fast Food" equals poor diet, malnutrition, and obesity. If you have a formula (or a design process) that allows to deliver your services in a quick and timely manner than lets indentify it as a "stream-lined production" - which equals efficiency and economy.
Some of our projects are very quick - retail in particular. That stuff has to fly out of our office and be constructed in a matter of 45-90 days depending on the lease agreement of our client. That does not mean we do crappy design. Retail has to have snap and flair.
| Checkpoint43 wrote: | You mentioned a cad system that they can buy for as little as $30.
Is it easy for the untrained customer to use?
What is the name of it? |
Dude - if that is really where you want to go.... buy a copy of 3D home design and see if your clients would like.....then have at it.
But I absolutely am telling you that you are headed in the wrong direction. PERIOD.
You and YOUR CLIENTS would be better served if you developed a "manual" of information about the issues you confront.... small baths, cabinet sizes and so on. You can have photo examples - maybe develop a "kit-of-parts" for certain rooms..... ie: develop a series of bathroom designs in varing configurations. Maybe some basic design rules based on the building code..... minimum stair rises/suns in different configurations. You can overlay the various types to show the space required.
You need to think about EDUCATING your client ....... not turning them away to a crappy home design program they can buy at Sam's........ because your are basically telling them that your services are worth $24.95. And in turn damaging your business. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 488
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| lekizz wrote: | | Somehow I doubt Phansford spends "many weeks" developing a "conceptual plan" with his clients |
Exactly..... much of the time is placing projects within our office schedule. The project schedule might say Schematic Design will be completed in 45 days, but that because we are working on other projects as well.
24-40 hours to develop a schematic design is typical depending on the house. Not 45 days x 8 hours a day...... although that would be a nice pay day.  |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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phansford wrote:
| Quote: | | You and YOUR CLIENTS would be better served if you developed a "manual" of information about the issues you confront.... small baths, cabinet sizes and so on. You can have photo examples - maybe develop a "kit-of-parts" for certain rooms..... ie: develop a series of bathroom designs in varing configurations. Maybe some basic design rules based on the building code..... minimum stair rises/suns in different configurations. You can overlay the various types to show the space required. |
I haven't thought of creating a manual. Thanks for the idea. |
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kmapro
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Strangely, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what phansford is saying. I know phans, it shocks me as well...
Checkpoint - In the first few posts, following your original, you seemed to poke a few jabs at phans and kept saying, or insinuating, that your question was being avoided. Truth of the matter is, he did answer your question - you just didn't like his answer.
For the architect he is and the work I have seen on his website, I admire phans. I think he does a great job at what he does.
As a person with views, I do have to question some of his opinions on non-degreed designers, but that is neither here nor there in this thread.
I, like yourself I presume, am not a degreed/licensed architect. I haven't been to any architecture classes, but I am VERY versed in structural design. Therefore, when a client comes to me, I stress that I work with the structure and sight placement first..then we will add in the frilly things.
They come to me with the same items that phansford mentioned...books, printouts, sketches on napkins - you name it.
For the common person, it is hard to see why a certain situation will not work or why we can't give them a 30' x 30' open room with no bracing in the middle.....they don't understand load transfer...they don't understand "stacking walls" and many of them have no clue what "load bearing" means. All they see is "this is purdy" or "that's neat"
Again, like phansford said - there is no software that can replace the design knowledge and education that a design professional or an architect has. Software can't visualize - it can only display what the person running it visualizes...and as the old saying goes, "garbage in...garbage out" |
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Checkpoint43
Joined: 22 Mar 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Lexington, VA
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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kmapro,
I believe my questions were very clear.
My first post:
| Quote: | | I thought a simple solution would be to get the customer involved in the initial design process |
| Quote: | My question is what software would you recommend?
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| Quote: | | what is the most inexpensive, user-friendly software you would recommend? |
My second post:
| Quote: | | Does this mean you recommend Punch, 3D Home Architect, or Google Sketch-Up? |
My third post:
| Quote: | | What is the best, most inexpensive, user-friendly, floorplan design software available for the non-professional to put their ideas on paper? |
My fourth post:
| Quote: | You mentioned a cad system that they can buy for as little as $30.
Is it easy for the untrained customer to use?
What is the name of it? |
In my fifth post,
I thanked phansford for his idea of creating a manual. Here is what he posted:
| Quote: | | You and YOUR CLIENTS would be better served if you developed a "manual" of information about the issues you confront.... small baths, cabinet sizes and so on. You can have photo examples - maybe develop a "kit-of-parts" for certain rooms..... ie: develop a series of bathroom designs in varing configurations. Maybe some basic design rules based on the building code..... minimum stair rises/suns in different configurations. You can overlay the various types to show the space required. |
I don't believe I made any attempts to poke jabs at anyone. |
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Madimel
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| I believe Phansford was addressing the issue. In so doing he is answering your question. I'm not sure if recommending software to the client is the answer for more efficiency. I don't know of any software that does not have some learning curve to them. So your clients will have not only to figure out what they want in their project, but also how to operate the software. It is so much easier and more fun to have them involved with trace paper and a pen or pencil. Software is no different than pen and paper, it serves as a tool. If they can't convey the idea on paper, they will not be able to do so on the computer screen either. If you're worried about furniture layout (size requirements), Barnes & Noble and other book stores sell books with templates in the interior design section. |
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csintexas
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1303
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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There was a web based home design software site but I can't remember what it was called.
I understand you only asked about the software and didn't want all the reasons that it is a bad idea but I have to agree with what others have said anyway.
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Chris Stewart
Modern Texas Home Project |
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