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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1697
Location: San Francisco
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 Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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I have seen many such "California hillside" houses, both in Northern and in Southern parts of the state. In a few cases the cars actually park on the roof of the house, but in any event the bulk of the house is below street grade and perhaps only a view or guest pavilion is seen from the street. The steep hills of Hurricane Gulch in Sausalito, north of San Francisco, have many examples. (The area is reputed to have strong winds, but not actual hurricanes !)
SDR |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Hi folks,
SDR, please feel free to comment on the hose layout and/or suggest other things to think about.
MX2.5, Chris, I most definitely defer to your knowledge and experience. But, this is a paper exercise for the next 10 years, so I think I should pursue ideas until there is enough fact to say the idea is not feasible. in other words, I think I should continue with my notions of what I think meets my needs until proven that it won't work (zoning, construction, cost, safety, etc). BUT, I should pursue in parallel other ideas so that I can compare pros and cons of each. So, I appreciate your alternative ideas and continue to see them as very helpful... keep your ideas, thoughts, doubts coming.
I love the look of the architecture that you suggested, MX2.5. But, as an end user, I get this picture of: "once I enter this house I WILL have stairs... there is no avoiding it". It's funny to see which things become important or irrelevant at different ages.
Here is a company that builds houses on stilts or pedestals for hurricane zones:
http://www.topsider.com/hurricane-proof-homes.asp
Here is a good question to try to put things in perspective also: given my current idea for a house, what do you suppose the cost/sqft would be in today's dollars (not 10 years from now)? Let's make it a little easier and say that labor and material will be what you are currently familiar with (you don't have to figure out what St Croix labor and material premiums would be). My guess is $250/sqft, includes cistern and septic system. I'm asking this because I don't know what people mean when they say "expensive". |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1776
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Yes I agree there is nothing wrong with idle speculation. I was just pointing out that that is what it is.
My house cost about 68 dollars per foot 5 years ago with me doing a lot of the work so with that in mind 250 per foot would be extremely expensive.
It doesn't really matter though. All that matters is what is expensive to you. I doubt your house cost will be much different than other houses around that location with similar construction. So if you can find a comp you would have a good idea of the approximate cost.
Generally when I say expensive I mean in relation to building an "average" house. In other words a equally sized house in the same area and on relatively flat land.
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1968
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Owner/builder responsibilities include supplying material and labor for foundation construction, shell assembly, common nails, paint, roofing materials, interior sheetrock, plumbing, electrical, heating & air-conditioning, appliances, and various miscellaneous and minor construction materials. |
Interesting product but again, even they avoid the issue of foundation and none of those images show a "topsider" built on a slope. They tend to opt for pilings which makes sense for beachside (sand and silt) properties, but even the "pedestal" makes me nervous in terms of stabilizing this flying house. 
I am of course playing devil's advocate here...as I mentioned, anything is possible if you throw enough money at it. My point so far has been to try and reduce distance of the elevated "first floor slab" above the slope. This will reduce your structural needs exponentially. It's also why I showed you multi-storied examples, which is a good way to separate public spaces from private spaces regardless. I never commented on your floor plan as it was conceptual in nature and demonstrated your basic wants but if I were to critique it now it would be to mention first that the relationship of public vs private spaces is not best organized. Typically the flow of space begins with entering into the most public spaces (living, dining rooms) and ending in the most private room of them all (bathroom). They should spatially be distributed to accomodate that sequence. Should be...but there is no penalty for not doing so, or deviating, if you know what I mean.
That said, I still think you could "bury" half the house into the hillside, where your road would arrive to the house and the other half juts out, resulting in a lower profile. Then I would suggest a lookout tower and.or deck for views of the surroundings which...(gulp)...would require stairs!  If the notion is to avoid stairs for arthritic reasons or whatnot, then yes, you're left with little choice but to elevate the one level as high as possible for a glimpse of the ocean 2 miles away, perhaps even pushing it further out and adding a bridge...like one of my favorite classics (minus the lower levels): Mario Botta's Riva San Vitale.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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OK, now I think we're putting the cost issue into perspective:
- in today's dollars, if I sold my house and retired, I would have about $250k of equity (even today) and maybe about $100k of savings (after putting my last child through college - if he goes in-state).
- So, I think I could afford a $50k mortgage to build a $400k house
- a $400k house, at 1600sqft is $250/sqft
- of course I have to live somewhere during the year that the house is being built, so there is still a possible pain factor here (I just haven't calculated this far yet).
- I'm assuming (have not studied this yet) that I can use today's dollars to figure this out because I'm guessing that my house will appreciate at the same rate that the cost of house construction will increase (and that most of the cost will come from equity).
And, here is the way I (currently) look at the cost vs one/two story house issue (assuming that the total cost is affordable to me):
- if it cost an additional $50k to get the entire house on one level, it's a no-brainer for me... well worth it.
- if it cost an additional $100k I would have to seriously think about it.
- if it cost an additional $200k I would put up with the pain of stairs and maybe move out of the house sooner than originally planned (I figure that if my, and wife's health stays good, we would probably last until maybe 70 yrs old, at which point the possible lack of hospitals might become an issue and cause us to look to move back to mainland). |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1776
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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One exception might be that as fuel prices are likely to increase faster than inflation so the cost of getting materials to and living on the island will increase faster than the value of your home. This is not about possible global warming but the very real and well known fact that we are close too or on the down hill side of our oil supply.
Will it be a factor in ten years? -who knows. 
Too many question remaining to get any feel for the costs involved for me. While 250 a sq. ft. seems like a lot of money, I would guess that you could spend that and more. I see they didn't even mention costs in that link. That may mean if you have to ask you can't afford it.
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Chris Stewart
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a link to houses very similar to what I'm thinking:
http://www.johnmartin.com/earthquakes/Eqresid/eqwood_0230.htm
OK, yes, they are incredibly scary looking. I wouldn't use 4x4 posts (it makes me think of old wooden roller coasters - the truss members are in 2-4 ft cells).
And, yes, they are pretty ugly looking. Mine would be on an acre and would have much more foliage around it.
But, note that the foundation is not that deep for the posts/piers... maybe they should be???? |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think so. One of the requirements was to withstand 110 knot winds right? -which means if it is not secured it may turn into a very fun ride.
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Chris Stewart
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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And, here is a company that builds homes on stilts, specifically for (145 MPH winds) hurricanes! $165k. Steel posts, Steel Ibeams, Steel truss in roof... now we're talking.
http://www.hurricanezonehousing.com/Housing.asp
OK, I know, it's built on flat ground. But, they haven't sunk the posts, they just tied the bases together.... I know, but it's on flat ground so it can't really slide easily. OK, still looking. |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1968
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Without trying, I'm certain you won't find pre-fab sloped houses. The foundation and resulting structure is custom, even the "topsider" will have to be designed for the elements involved. The wooden house is for eathquake zones, which typically means west coast construction and takes no bearing of high wind pressures, as in hurricane winds. Earthquake construction is different in that you want as much flexibility in the structure as possible. Hurricane construction is two-fold; tightly enclosed shell, and impact resistance....or the complete opposite and open uip the whole house to let the wind blow right through it. You'll still need a good roof structure so as to not fly away.
Considering a 1600 sf one-level house, I highly doubt it would come close to $400k to build, although you will sink some money into the foundation work for sure (pun intended). I think you have enough info now to approach a designer/builder on the island and get some preliminary drawings worked out and a prelimninary cost estimate for consideration. Only then will you truly be able to decide.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Seems like being on a hillside will be much more of a problem because if the wind comes from that direction it will not be traveling perpendicular to the wall but up the hill side which may also tend to concentrate it. The fact that you are inland with a view of the ocean and on the side of a hill tells me that you are at the end of a valley which may concentrate the wind further.
The cost of that other house is maybe just for materials for the shell. I think steel SIPS may be a good solution though. They have good strength to weight and are easy to assemble on site.
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Chris Stewart
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Ohhhh folks, have I had a good read. This is a long blog, so you probably don't want to read all of it, but it is a blog from two guys who built a "villa" on St John (a cousin of St Croix). It is great reading... very entertaining, and lots of tidbits of very useful info (for me).
One major tidbit:
- architect estimated about $450k for their house
- builder estimated $550k
- final price... about $1.3M
They blog the whole experience so it is very interesting to see where the cost inflation comes from.
See:
http://www.bongobongostjohn.com/blog/ |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1776
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like they have expensive tastes. Just goes to show how easy it is to spend money.
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Chris Stewart
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I agree, very nice taste if you're going to rent to people that don't have to ask the price
If I could get my steel foundation for under $50k, I'm thinking my $400k guess agrees pretty well with their numbers. Architect and builder will probably estimate $200-250k, and the actual will be about $400k if I can be careful to track expenses and anticipate potential problems (you know, all that nagging and looking into the details that we engineers like to do).
I don't know about you folks, but I really like stained and etched concrete flooring. It's got me thinking about a few things:
- I wonder how much concrete my steel I-beam foundation can support
- if I have to use wood flooring instead, I wonder how hard it's going to be to keep termites away if the bottom of the house could be 20 ft in the air in places. |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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And... here is a blog of another house on St John. I'm sending only one page of it. You can see an eerily familiar shape... a house sticking WAY out from a hill. Hmmmm... concrete posts??? Is it just easier to put up forms, run some rebar and just poor concrete???
http://www.reefmadnessvilla.com/Madness-2.htm |
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