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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1539
Location: San Francisco
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 Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I've got it: concrete !
If Frank Lloyd Wright could do it, so can you. . .
SDR
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1827
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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LOL!!!! Welcome to South Florida construction...the Land of CMU and Stucco.
Hurricane loads are not what you think. One has to approach design with positive and negative pressures in mind...in other words, doors, windows and roofs have pressure "pushed" upon them and then pressure "sucked" on them...over and over and depending on what region you are, these could be designed for wind speeds of 130 mph +...
CMU construction on stilts? Hmmm....
Back to what I first suggested...and think "low-sloped roof". 
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1539
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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One wonders whether it would be worth enclosing -- "streamlining" -- the stilt/truss space below the volume of the house, as part of the hurricane-proofing strategy, or whether, as long as that is a steel frame, it would be unnecessary. . .
SDR
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lekizz
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 954
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| csintexas has given some good advice about starting from first principles. In addition, my advice would be to start by designing in section, rather than in plan. After all, the distinguishing feature of the site is the severe slope. Certainly from an architectural point of view, if you are decribing a large concrete cistern on a hillside underneath a steel cantilevered carpark underneath a house with 12 foot ceilings, then all those things will be best described and understood graphically in section.
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Lekizz:
- I wouldn't ask this forum to go through the whole process of designing the house. I'm just hoping to get some pointers from the voices of experience.
- I'll pay for the architectural and engineering work when I have enough knowledge to help guide the process to my liking. (I'd love to be paying you folks for the wonderful advice to date, but of course I'm too cheap, so I'll ask you to kindly consider an invitation to the island, with a free dinner, once the house is built. I'll also engrave monikers for the various design elements that I get from this community).
- I agree with a more 3D visualization approach. I'm paying a surveyor on the island to measure and produce a topographic map (I don't like the coarseness of the free topo maps available from topozone.com.
- Once I have a topomap, I can produce a 3D rendering of the land and house ideas using SketchUp.
Hi SDR:
- yes, I'm thinking concrete or concrete block, as MX2 has suggested because MX2 says that labor is probably "cheap", but imported materials won't be cheap. I'm also interested in this RASTRA material (I posted a question about it earlier) which seems to be a mix of concrete and styrofoam.
Hi MX2.5:
- believe it not as a radar/electrical engineer I actually understand some of the issues of hydro and aerodynamics... there are lots of similarities with the physics of RF energy flowing around objects.
- yes, there are positive and negative (relative) pressures to contend with.
- my St Croix zoning and building laws book says that I need to design for 110 knot winds. I'm sure that designing for "just another 20 knots" is not going to be easy, but I will certainly study and consider it.
- it looks to me that FL is leading the way here... is that your impression also?
- I might still have to settle on dug-in construction, but I'm really holding out to try to get the house up another 20 feet. The difference in view is dramatic for this extra 20 ft.
- In Haiti (where you're designing), do you think you could get away with the cistern being within the setback area of the lot (if it's hidden from view)? It is part of the structure (so you would think that it will not be approved), but, it's not visible.
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1539
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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FL ?
I wasn't serious about replicating Wright's Ennis house, really -- or even using block, necessarily. (If your cistern/foundation cube is to hold water, perhaps cast concrete would be better ?
Lekizz is right about designing "in section" (among other views) for this project; I imagine most of us are thinking in that way now. A section view would immediately make clear the relationships between road, entrance platform, subfloor structures (including the massive cistern), and the view sightlines from the house itself. Sections cut to look both east and west would reveal different portions of the interior, as well.
The Sturges house section I showed previously (demonstrating
"braced cantilever") is a good example of this drawing type.
SDR
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1827
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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FL, as in Florida. Yes, Florida...actually South Florida is leading the way in hurricane preparedness. Monroe, Miami-Dade and Broward Counties have all adopted the stringent code requirements for construction that has lead to the High Velocity Wind Zone now applied throughout the State. It's a pain as it adds another layer of restrictions which is quite frustrating in terms of not having free reign to design chocies, but in the end, we live and work in much safer buildings. Ironically, these codes are relatively recent so if a storm hits downtown Miami directly, it will be a disaster regardless. Many islands have adopted or replicate some of the code requirements of S. Fla. There are some basic principles in that regard which you'd think common sense would dictate but it took code to get people to notice: such as hipped roofs perform better than gabled roofs, reduce your overhangs, design for uplift, provide lateral support, add hurricane clips to your roof tiles, add straps to your trusses, install shutters or impact resistant windows and doors, build with concrete...not straw. 
To answer some of your ther questions, I agree with Lekizz if someone could post a 1:2 slope and show his house in section, a lot of answers will reveal themselves. Bakc o the beginning, as I first mentioned, by elevating the house and building a wall up to the first floor and enclosing the space beneath the jutting house is a very, very tall and expensive wall...which is why most who do such a thing do so with cut and fill techniques and build retaining walls. The first floor will still be elevated quite a bit but just not so literally. At a 1:2 slope, if half a 40 foot wide house were buried in the slope, the edge of the other half that would be hanging over the slope would be 10 feet above the mountain side directly below that edge. Then you start to realize you could live in that space (or build a cistern)...but then you realize you can occupy above, then you realize all the possibiities without having to do anything elborate but build as many have built in tens of thousands of years...in steppes.
As for the cisterns in Haiti, many try to be creative and incorporate it as part of the house, mostly because you want to collect the rainwater as much as possible. But access for maintenance and repair is critical, because..well...shtuff happens. Slow leaks, foundation shifts, etc...but I once lived in a house that had two cisterns, both far from the house, one being tied directly into city provided water (we were lucky) and the other collected rainwater and overflow but we exposed the top and built a balustrade around the perimter and made it a deck in the garden. It was essentially hidden in plain sight...
Hope some of this helps...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi folks,
OK, I believe that I have the long house in "section". This is the view from the east, looking (roughly) west (actually, parallel to the south road.
Remember that a lot of foliage would be growing under and around the house. So, I don't think that the truss would be quite as ugly as it appears in this drawing.
Here are some of my design ideas, from a construction point of view:
- I think the cistern could be built in this location, as opposed to under the house. I think it would be difficult to get construction equipment to the location under the house.
- I'm thinking that the foundations for the vertical truss members could be dug and poured by hand, so if they are a ways down the hill, then I think it's still do-able.
- I think that the trusses could maybe be built in sections and then a crane could drop them into location. Or, you build out from the road in sections, and use the first section as a paltform for the construction of the next section.
- the platform over the cistern would have access hatches to get to the cistern. You have to be able to drive over these hatches, so they can't just be plates that lay over a hole.
- the cistern is set back from the road so that if St Croix wants to run electrical, plumbing, etc in the future then I've left them some room to bury these. They may want more room.
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1827
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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My personal subjective criticism is an aesthetic issue...3/4 of the structure is steel framing. As seen from a distance, this is not an object that relates to the site and surroundings. I would still prefer to see this hugging the mountain a bit more. But that's my opinion...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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SDR
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1539
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Recall that he wants to capture the views. This requirement would seem to drive the datum of the main floor.
What's shown and described here is so close to what I've imagined that I have nothing to add. Of course, it would be fun to play with the house itself. . .
Who, really will see the substructure ? Surely not a visitor to the house who arrives via the street. Maybe there are down-hill neighbors who would object ?
SDR
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EngRMP
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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The attached view my help to put things into perspective a bit. It shows:
- the property at an elevated view, but facing north.
- Water is 2 miles away. It's also 2 miles away to the south.
- I have highlighted (in white) the 300 ft topo line which is about the top of my property (goes through the south road).
Note that:
- I am in a "bowl" with lots of higher ground to my south, east and west. There is even a high spot to my north.
- what you can't tell is that there is a view to the south/east from the south-east corner of my lot
- I believe that if I drop the house 10-20 ft then I'm so deep in the bowl that I'll get no view of water. I also fear that I'll lose breezes. I might be wrong, and it needs further study (on my next trip).
MX2.5, I agree that steel framework reminds me more of a factory than a home, but I'm wondering if somewhat creative (not exotic) landscaping could help to soften this look. For example, vines on the truss, and maybe some random groupings of palm trees or other tall, columnar trees. The other possibility is to design the geometry of the truss in a more aesthetic shape - maybe more geodesic???
You know though, another feature that I REALLY like about this "raised" home is that it seems that I might have a chance of keeping from being over-run with ants and other crawling bugs. Of course, this might be wishful thinking.
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1827
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Well first, I would say that a "view" of the ocean would be pretty much a "glimpse" which is certainly better than nothing, but I feel you may be approaching this as wishful thinking. But I was taught to believe we can all make chicken doup from chicken sh*t so I applaud your vision. However, I think you may be going down the extreme path, rather than the path of least resistance. There is nothing wrong with everyones various ideas, if you throw complexity and window out the window because essentially anything can pretty much be done without a budget or other constraints. There's a reason most structures on stilts are no more than one floor level higher...and I emphasize the term "most". The more you elevate and hang the house, the more exposed it is to natural forces. This then kicks in more reinforcement, driving up costs, starting with bigger, deeper footings. Concrete as your material adds significan t weight, protecting you better from wind forces but now adding even more weight. So many elements are coming together to make this a rather expensive endeavor. That's why I'm a proponent of beginning with the established local methods of construction and then looking to improve and enhance to suit your design wishes.
I was thinking more in lines of the following:
http://www.architectstudio3d.org/AS3d/images/people_treehouse.jpg
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1310
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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I doubt there is any way those piers can be dug by hand reasonably. They would have to be deep and the ground seems rocky.
I have to agree with mx2, what you are proposing will be pretty expensive if it needs to be hurricane resistant. Building codes may prohibit the cistern from being within the front setback. I suppose the size of the house can be sacrificed to cut costs though.
I don't have any problems with piers aesthetically -A lot of modern houses are done that way.
We aren't engineers though and before I pursued this design I would want to consult with someone who really has experience in what it will take to withstand 110 knot winds. Any thing else is just idle speculation.
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1827
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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It's not idle speculation to know what kind of structure can withstand a Category 5 hurricane if need be. Engineers take direction from the Architect, not the other way around. And keep in mind, wood exterior walls can be constructued to withstand hurricane forces as well.
That said, here's another example (more in lines with the steel bracing that most here seem to prefer) that demonstrates the elevated slab to be no more than one floor level above grade. Note that the "back" of the house is anchored deeply in the mountainside such that the wall meets the ground and slopes back up the mountain:
http://mocoloco.com/archives/000235.php
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1827
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Note the foundation below...the concrete that the steel bracing is attached to. That's a good solution for uplift...also, I like the fact that the "first floor" (entry above) appears to be small from first approach but once inside, the majority of the house is at "second floor" below...leaving a nice deck above for views.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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