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J.Saravana Balaji
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
Location: India
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 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Dear Asiawest,
Most of the people think that an Architect recommends a product to the client,it is not so.Architect uses the product to complete a project ,for which he was appointed by the client.So your primary customer is the Architect whereas his client is the end customer.I don't think anybody pays their customer for using their product.
Instead you can spend the money in creating awarness about your product among the Architect , say you can conduct a seminar or product presentation and invite Architect for an interaction.This method is widely practised. |
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teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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You miss the point entirely, but I am not surprised. That's exactly why I brought up language but you're too damned defensive to even begin to understand.
You can be sure that if I were doing business in another country I would either be fluent or have someone with me who was.
Good luck.
I'll keep an eye out for you.
By the way, I don't suppose you're going to bother to call the AIA to check on those ethics are you?
Of course not. |
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asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Question to Architects? |
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Dear Madimel and J.Saravana Balaji
I think that you both are going to constructive ideas and in that way we can build some thing, as an architect should do. In our side, we won’t make any illegal moves as well we don’t won’t you to be involved in any illegal way or troubles but we just need to understand each other to tie up an idea could we? If this does not work then we will just give in up as we don’t need that business to survive but it is just an idea witch I really believe. So why not to work together to make it stronger as a team and making it professionally as nobody thought about it before?
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
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asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Question to Architects? |
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Teamjdc
You’re completely out of thinking and I won’t spend my time to write to you, this is a petty for you I believe.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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You represent a business. How is your ethical standards?
_________________
The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
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asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Question to Architects? |
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djswan
Good question and I hope with the following I will answer and make a term of this polemic “what is legal or not and what is ethical or not “FOR US”. Please do not confuse ethic with law it is completely different.
We are an IBC (International Business Company) we depend of international law not of the AIA or any else organization.
A Business company does not have an ethical procedure to follow up as an architect or a lawyer for example. We are free to run our business as we want, as long as we follow up International law (here I am talking bout law not ethic).
If we supply bad material to a client to build something and then the building collapse because of material quality, we will be responsible by the international law as supplier. So here believe that we better work closely with the architect to make sure that quality material is respected instead of finishing in a court.
(Now I am talking about ethic) Although a business company is subject of International law we are free to manage our own ethic and for this every serious company has one as we do and we call that “a company policy” or you may call that ethic, we make it yourself, as we want it to be and every members of the company have to follow it.
Policy is a formal statement of a principle or rule that members of an organization must follow. Each policy addresses an issue important to the organization's mission or operations.
A procedure tells members of the organization how to carry out or implement a policy. Policy is the "what" and the procedure is the "how to."
Policies are written as statements or rules. Procedures are written as instructions, in logical, numbered steps.
I hope this time is well understood and that we can continue the topic of architect needs today to run better (business).
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the clarification between professional ethics and business law. I woke up to this.
http://homepage.bresnan.net/feeds/displayNewsMLArticle.aspx?file=631598
Politics can be muddy. Good luck with the Olympics. I want to go.
_________________
The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
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teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: |
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For those who are ethically challenged, see http://www.ncarb.org/Forms/roconduct.pdf
Read 2.3 on page 7:
***
2.3 An architect shall not solicit or accept
compensation from material or equipment
suppliers in connection with specifying or
endorsing their products. As used herein,
“compensation” shall not mean customary
and reasonable business hospitality, entertainment,
or product education.
COMMENTARY
This rule appears in most of the existing state standards.
It is absolute and does not provide for waiver
by agreement.
***
Clear enough? |
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1813
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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NCARB and the AIA have no teeth but to revoke your membership. That said, the AIA has no mention of compensation for specifying products. And regardless, they both can only offer guidelines...not law. However, that said, what makes something unethical or ethical? Now it's a philosophical questions because I for one do not think it is unethical, and it just so happens it is not illegal in my State. But that doesn't mean someone else doesn;t think it is unethical.,...and I finally commend jdc for actually providing some back up to his ranting. I stand corrected...you have made your point and done so very well.
I would argue ethics is based on a set of principles based on fairness and collective benefit. Then we must discuss free-market rules...and how ethicvs are defined...and who defines them. So, bottom line, collusion is unethical. If an Architect does not fully disclose and have the client agree to such dealings then yes, compensation fo specifying a procudt would absolutely be unethical and the architect could/should lose their license. However if the client agrees, meaning all three parties agree...who is harmed? The Architect ought to be compensated for their vast knowledge and experience with the multitude of products available. Ironically...Interior Designers, Doctors, Lawyers all enjoy huge margins of profits and "sponsorships" based upon this very model...and yet Architects somehow are doing some diservice by potentially being able to profit from products? I don't by it...but I can tell you this. I won't do it regardless...it's not my job. That is until I get my GC license and start my own Design-Build company. Then you're damned right I'm gonna profit from every screw on the job...
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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MX, I agree completely... well, almost.
Full disclosure and knowing state laws.
NCARB has teeth insofar as they may revoke their certification and that could be a real problem for reciprocity. But each individual architect needs to decide if that matters to them.
I couldn't care less about NCARB. I am not an NCARB certificate holder -- my state does not require it -- and I have no need for licensure in other states.
The important thing is to know your state law and your personal boundaries.
I grew up in this business in a time where kickbacks were prohibited in every respect. Frankly, I like the distinction between us and the interior designers out there. I think it's one of the reasons why our profession enjoys a higher level of prestige from those who have their hands out for every nickel regardless of the source or motivation.
As for suppliers, if you feel the need to bribe then my first assumption is that your product or customer service are lacking. There are better ways to distinguish yourself. |
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mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1813
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well, let's put ourselves in the suppliers shoes for one second...would you market the client, the GC and/or the architect? Who actually makes the decision? Who should profit from it? Who shouldn't? Who can help sell your product more often and on a wider scale? How many building products could a client possibly know about? And the GC?...they are out to make money on everything...speaking of unethical, what is in the interests of the GC to purchase and install the best product versus the cheapest...or the one that gives him a kickback? It's an unusual business if you ask me...
...I'm sticking to Architecture. If a manufacturer wants to sell me, present your product, give me your product line/brochure and I'll keep it in mind when looking to select a product for specification. But I get paid based on the contract with the owner...which is very clear.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not up to speed on our contracting laws, but I do know that we once fired a CM for taking kickbacks. Then again, it was a design-build job so that put the boss in a precarious position. Regardless of what the law said, that CM was toast as far as the boss was concerned.
The SOB was taking 10% from the subs! That's when I knew how he could afford the house he owned. |
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Westasia
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: Question to Architects? |
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Dear All, this is asiawest
I have been blocked to reply or post on this forum by the host and that’s why I signed under another name to reply, the reason was “spam”. Did you see that I was spaming in this forum? Although as a marketing person I learned in school long time ago that signing under every letter, email or else was necessary for the reader to allow them to know who you are, this could be the only reason that the host may think I was spaming but I believe this is not for this reason.
Anyway I won’t talk about it and I will leave this forum and if necessary I will create a real free forum discussion even for you (Teamjdc) which you will have the right to express yourself freely even against me. since this forum seams to be not ETHICAL when we were just talking about.
It is a pity, so far I can see that even today in the US you can’t have the liberty of expression, I am French my ancestor fought against (revolution) and won’t forget it and that’s why I am coming back by other way to express injustice.
This is my last post since I believe the host anyway is going to block me again instead of really understand the situation.
Let me know if you are interested on a real forum discussion then I will create it under the name of www.alientell.com
If you want to talk to me now just drop me an email, I wish you the best for all of you and thank to have been actively participate to this topic.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
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teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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The fact that you have a problem comprehending is not my fault.
I have provided you the information and you choose to ignore it.
The kickbacks you propose are illlegal in most states and considered unethical by most architects.
If you had any sense, you'd realize I was trying to help you.
Yes, we are a nation of freedoms. We also have laws and the vast majority of our citizens choose to abide by them. |
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Westasia
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Question to Architects? |
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Teamjdc
I am not too defensive but now too much encouraging as you tried in blocking me to monopolize words in this forum that you probably host and spread the fear to other, you won’t stop me (it is quite easy to play with law to be legal and ethical, I’m going to show you). Please keep an eye on me as you said, I am so far not afraid of you or any institutions of the US as you will see, also please spray the words to any architect institutions in the US that we are coming to the US with this time natives US citizens to make sure that everyone will know what I am talking about without spelling English mistakes. You’re an architect, we are business peoples and it is the time for you to learn about business instead of keeping traditional architect idea and believe I am going to watch and fine every moves of your institution.
If you want to be big, watch the big! This is what I am going to show you.
This time it’s really my last post, as I realized that you just want to keep the last world, as you will do again after reading this post to show to peoples you were right (watch me).
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
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