|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
    |
|
| It's unethical. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Miami, Florida
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Except for the brief opinion you make jdc, you make no substantial argument at all to explain why you think it's unethical. It's about as unethical as making a profit on any commodity on earth. It takes more than a simple statement to make a point.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 335
Location: Montana, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Confict of interest comes to mind as a simple statemen. It's about representation. A company can hire an architect or anybody else for that matter to sell goods.
_________________
The definition of architect is "Master Builder".
I am a builder and there are no masters.
"I'm not one of those who in expressing opinions confine themselves to facts"
Mark Twain |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Architorture
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1327
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
so long as the entire arrangement is transparent and the architect represents themselves as being an agent who stands to profit from the use of the product i think it is a workable solution...
architects do something very similar all the time by using 'basis of design' specs- generally this doesn't result in a monetary exchange although you can be sure a company is going to be many times more responsive and helpful when they know they are your number 1 in the spec.... especially in public bid jobs with competition...
so long as the client knows that is going on and they accept the arrangement i think everything would work out fine- the simple fact is as mx2 put it there are very very few clients that have that kind of control or luxury when choosing products for their projects...
also consider that if the architect is getting a kick back from the product maker i would guess that most clients wouldn't love their architect so much that they wouldn't expect to get some money back on the percentage or the cost of the product... if i were a client i wouldn't pay my architect any more than i had agreed to pay them up front... why would i assuming everything was fair to start? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Madimel
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| It is not unethical to source your FF&E items when the terms are disclosed to the client. Of course that would also mean a full disclosure of the architect's fee since it is considered additional services. These items are not limited to furniture, it also includes items such as antique artifacts like fireplaces, roof tiles, etc. In theory, working with China was a win-win situation for the entire design team. The designers got what they wanted and the clients got it for a substantially reduced cost. There was never any collusion between the supplier and the designers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mx2
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Miami, Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Collusion is one thing which is an effort to decieve a paying client. It's not illegal to make a profit on selling an item but as I said, Architects are not in the business usually to sell products. Architects have more issues to deal with. There's not much margin to make a profit on CMU, for example...and it's usually left to the GC to pick and choose their suppliers in which case they ABSOLUTELY mark everything up for profit...and then add 10%!
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Teamjdc are you the head speaker of a congress of all architects of the USA to tell me, our company is unethical and what we have to do?
First of all I repeat, I asked in my first post if this will be illegal or not so that mean I was uncertain about the subject as I am again a marketing person not an architect.
Our company is free to deal, as they want to deal because for us it is totally legal to process such marketing approach and we don’t need you to tell us to be away of the US. If you, you don’t want to deal with us then it’s just fine for us, we also don’t need you.
I don’t see any unethical way to make illegal thing into legal way, this is what lawyers do most of the time especially in the US as long as at the end it is legal, we just play with the law.
We are supplying in South Asia a project of 40 villas just in the same approach right now and the client, the architect and us are all happy with the deal so far we call that business.
You told us we are unethical but even some architects are not agree with you, so how should we take this discrimination you give us if effectively you are wrong, discriminate you?
I am trying a way to increase architect incomes, cutting cost of client expenses in a legal way and you tell me that’s wrong? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And as I forgot to sign with my email and website Teamjdc in my last post so here it goes because I did not know that asking question was also illegal and unethical for you.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Question to Architects? |
|
|
Teamjdc are you the head speaker of a congress of all architects of the USA to tell me, our company is unethical and what we have to do?
First of all I repeat, I asked in my first post if this will be illegal or not so that mean I was uncertain about the subject as I am again a marketing person not an architect.
Our company is free to deal, as they want to deal because for us it is totally legal to process such marketing approach and we don’t need you to tell us to be away of the US. If you, you don’t want to deal with us then it’s just fine for us, we also don’t need you.
I don’t see any unethical way to make illegal thing into legal way, this is what lawyers do most of the time especially in the US as long as at the end it is legal, we just play with the law.
We are supplying in South Asia a project of 40 villas just in the same approach right now and the client, the architect and us are all happy with the deal so far we call that business.
You told us we are unethical but even some architects are not agree with you, so how should we take this discrimination you give us if effectively you are wrong, discriminate you?
I am trying a way to increase architect incomes, cutting cost of client expenses in a legal way and you tell me that’s wrong?
I did not know that asking question was also illegal and unethical for you.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J.Saravana Balaji
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
Location: India
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hai,
According to me any creator imagines/visualises about his creation before anyother does.While conceptulising a design we will be assigning the material to the product at the back of our mind.Changing the material or the element (after getting percentage from the supplier) is a sought of compromise.
Moreover it may so happen that the supplier may take advantage of the architect and supply substandard material to the site.
Please let the discussion happen.let's exchange our views. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:11 am Post subject: Question to Architects? |
|
|
Hi J.Saravana Balaji, this is a much more mature approach to me, to discuss on the subject.
So far I can see on my side is nothing wrong that an architect recommends a supplier to his client, the client is still free to say NO THANK YOU or WHAT A GOOD IDEA when finance is considerably cutting for its client. If he says yes then they normally (the client) come over us in China to see materials themselves and the deal is made between the architect client and us, not the architect itself is involved.
As a business company we are free and completely legal to reattribute a commission to anyone we want for referring businesses (this includes architect), as we could pay a commission to one of our sales people, nothing again illegal on that to our side.
If the supplier, supply substandard material to the site this conflict will be between the supplier and the client of the architect, still the architect is not directly involved does he?
Again I am talking about what in our side we have the right to do, I am not talking on behalf of an architect office. I would be quite interested to talk to a lawyer actually about that.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Question to Architects? |
|
|
mx2.5Hi, I’m sorry not replying at your last post yet against Teamjdc but I think you just make the real point of view of businesses is today. All your explanations are quite clear for those who are not too blend of what the business matter is today.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teamjdc
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 145
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
asiawest,
You asked a question and I answered. Know that some are giving you information that is not valid for the US. They may want to hide behind technicalities and twist words, but you will not get ethical architects to respond to your offer.
Do not think you are the first to offer.
Don't make the mistake of comparing asian architects and the practice of architecture to the US. This is not provincial, this is not a judgement, it's simple fact -- there are differences and you will not make a dent in the way architecture is practiced here.
Try talking to interior decorators and designers.
Another bit of advice. You would help your cause if you hired someone with a good command of the native language of those to whom you are trying to sell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asiawest
Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Question to Architects? |
|
|
Teamjdc
Thank you again for your provoking attack concerning my English ability. Don’t worry about my English I am quite OK to run business with as well my Chinese Mandarin, Chinese Cantonese and a bit German although my French as a native is much better, how many languages do you speak? By the way you made a mistake in writing (judgement) in your last post, you just wrote it as the French does and you missed the capital letter at Asian. We have native English in our company but I just don’t need to use them to write on a forum.
I noticed in my career in over than 20 years in the business, only short-minded peoples was making such remarks.
Anyway at this time I appreciated your point of view in a less aggressive way somewhere and I will continue my marketing research with or without your consent.
Oliver
www.deco.group-asiawest.com
oliver(AT)group-asiawest.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Madimel
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oliver,
This is an open forum so people are going to offer their opinion. I do not speak for the entire architectural community, but having worked for two companies that did business with China and now for my own practice I work with two companies, one US and the other in France, I certainly see a market for your services. As I have stated before we've experienced problems with communication and expectations of the overall product. If your company can show a proven track record of reliable delivery of goods from your source, then I am sure many clients would be happy to work with you. However, not too many clients are willing to be the first to try out a "new" source when they have so much capital riding on these projects. It may benefit your company if you start your first couple of projects as a joint venture with the developer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
blogger
del.icio.us
digg
slashdot
