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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:22 am Post subject: |
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The public is the culture. Your basically saying the public asks for what the public dictates.
I can't speak for anyone else but what I do is craft except when I occasionally sell a previously drawn plan. If you two or anyone else doesn't feel like you are providing craft I certainly can believe you.
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1967
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, bite me Chris...that's not what I said, inferred or suggested, so don't give me more backhanded insults and then later starting crying about he said/she said....
I wasn't denigrating anyone's ability to "craft"...not the subject. I was saying that the crap you think you design is really the same shit salad, just tossed differently and maybe some dressing with a little twist that makes you think you re-invented the wheel! In truth, there is no revolution, there is nothing remotely inspiring that simply moves the public in hordes to buy "Chris-designed" homes....you're not selling a commodity; there's no pre-packaged box and unit price. Like us all, you design one project at a time and it's usually to meet the clients needs, not the "public at large", and certainly not with an eye of selling to millions of potential consumers. No...it's just site specific, client based design,...as it ought to be.
HOWEVER, what you seem to miss was that unlike fashion designers, or car designers who consistently and pruposefully influence an entire market with new "trends", architects tend to remain "purists" and try very hard to do their "craft" very well...and consistently. That usually means what is being crafted has been "proven"...and the new project may at best be an improvement, and not a new design. So it's not the public that demands a design...they don't know any better...it's that there nothing new to offer them. The designers create the culture...and "we" aren't creating much...even though we tell ourselves we are.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1776
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, bite me Chris...that's not what I said, inferred or suggested, so don't give me more backhanded insults and then later starting crying about he said/she said.... |
Huh?
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I wasn't denigrating anyone's ability to "craft"...not the subject. I was saying that the crap you think you design is really the same shit salad, just tossed differently and maybe some dressing with a little twist that makes you think you re-invented the wheel! In truth, there is no revolution, there is nothing remotely inspiring that simply moves the public in hordes to buy "Chris-designed" homes....you're not selling a commodity; there's no pre-packaged box and unit price. Like us all, you design one project at a time and it's usually to meet the clients needs, not the "public at large", and certainly not with an eye of selling to millions of potential consumers. No...it's just site specific, client based design,...as it ought to be. |
That is what I have been saying from the beginning.
Design is usually evolutionary. Architects are just as likely to do new things as any one else I really don't see any difference between any type of design. The public does not demand a design they buy what they prefer and so influence what is available.
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Chris Stewart
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
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Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Oh boy...{sigh}...
| Quote: | | If you two or anyone else doesn't feel like you are providing craft I certainly can believe you. |
Bite me again...for the hell of it. U don't see how you insulted "us two"? Then you're a danger unto yourself...don't go to any bars alone buddy.
| Quote: | | That is what I have been saying from the beginning. |
I can't get any headway with you...I KNOW that's what you've been saying and the point is that we don't really create anything new, effecting the outcome by NOT doing anything. It's how we ought to be, only because we don;t sell commodities...we provide a service, we cater to the client. But if we were to decide to do something meaningful, which is not a good business (bottom line) decision, we either have to be one of the few GREAT designers (they know who THEY are), or they're doing a lot of pro bono work...
BUT in the ideal situation, we would take our services and commodify them into meaningfull work that attracts clients to our "style". The problem being is that the professionals of architecture, the related industrial players and the general public all THINK that style, the commodification of arcitecture and the daring attempt to try new things is a waste of time and money...
I'm saying that what you've been saying is the current reality but that it sucks and should be changed from within the profession.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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RSCarcht
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 79
Location: USA: RI, CT, NY, MA, FL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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You make a good point about “commodity” undercutting the concept of brand. If that is so, then I see a bifurcation in the marketplace as with most other things: at one end is the need for "branded" architecture--towers or buildings identified by the designers who created them. On the other end is the vast world of builder designed housing and engineer designed commercial structures where quantity triumphs over quality.
Only through education will the general public ever learn to demand one over the other and this is an area where I think the architecture profession has not stepped up to the plate.
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Ross Sinclair Cann, AIA APA
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1967
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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I believe it's a simple case of "money talks"....not everyone can order up a nice new skyscraper and give kudos to its chief designer. However, many still confuse architecture and heroism...as if Architects are naturally professionals that improve the environment. As much as that sounds like a great idea, the truth is in todays markets, most Architects are simple businessmen (persons) who are trying to make money. For that they offer their services and those services are not commodities (basic economic terminology that our friend Chris had to naturall argue against)...however many have tried to commodify their services and nearly ended up with brand/style services. Perhaps there is something to this business model however (this circles back nicely) when thinking of professional obligations there is little if no room to copy/paste our services from one job to another without having a very expensive errors and omissions policy paid for well in advance. In truth, to design well one must customize each project, even if using systematic or commodified products to do so. Afterall, we all use drawing libraries, even stencils, to work faster but ultimately one still cannot sell Architecture off the shelf.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:50 am Post subject: |
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curious how these discussions so often refer to "the client" as if they were a rather backward group who happened to have unearthed some gold. It always makes them sound like a group of wizened old prospectors who only know about mules and shovelling dirt, and take half an hour to scrawl out their own names on the claim papers.
not all clients are like that.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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modjohn
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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If architecture has not become a commodity, what do you all think of architects/designers that are selling stock house plans of decent designs through their own web sites directly to consumers at $1000 to $1500? I am not talking about the web sites that sell plans for every ugly house ever designed, but the individuals that are offering just a few plans.
I am sure that they are finding people that want some changes made to the stock plans and making some additional money there.
Are they improving or aggravating the situation? |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1967
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Just as many often generalize about Architects it is very true that not all clients are un-sophisticated. I have had the pleasure of working "with" quite a few.
As for the commodification of plans and selling them to the public, it reminds me of paintings...are reproductions (posters) of a painting the same as buying the original oil painting?
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose good stock plans would be better than bad stock plans. Still the question remains what is good and what is bad?
Here is how http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commodity
defines commodity:
1: an economic good: as a: a product of agriculture or mining b: an article of commerce especially when delivered for shipment <commodities futures> c: a mass-produced unspecialized product <commodity chemicals> <commodity memory chips> 2 a: something useful or valued <that valuable commodity patience>; also : thing, entity b: convenience, advantage3obsolete : quantity, lot 4: a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price 5: one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market <stars as individuals and as commodities of the film industry — Film Quarterly>
I think 4 is particularly pertinent. I suppose in that since anything that is widely available is a commodity. Although I don't see that is really true for architecture since there are free plans available but people still pay to create new plans or customize stock plans. For example any builder would have a number of old plans lying around that they would not have to pay anyone to use but many people still choose to pay to have a new design created.
Professional architects never have played a major roll in residential architecture. The current concept of professional architect is mostly a 20th century invention.
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Chris Stewart
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RSCarcht
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 79
Location: USA: RI, CT, NY, MA, FL
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that there are sophisticated clients, but they weren't born that way--they generally had the pleasure of good education or the pain of the school of hard knocks. Architecture should have value and stock plans are generally a false savings since each project has a particular site, architectural context, orientation to wind and sun and specific zoning regulations.
Frequently, someone jump on these pages with a "Hey! Where can I get a set of blueprints least expensively?" When you consider that a good set of plans allows for competitive bidding, prevents expensive construction errors and increases the value of the end product through superior design, the plans more than save their own cost. Therefore, NOT engaging in a design process is the most expensive route a client can generally take.
I understand they catch monkeys by putting an orange in a tethered jar with an opening just large enough for the monkey's arm. The monkey will grab the orange but can't pull it out, but won't let go. Sometimes I think that orange is like the illusiory savings of a set of stock plans....
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Ross Sinclair Cann, AIA APA
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1967
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Frequently, someone jump on these pages with a "Hey! Where can I get a set of blueprints least expensively?" When you consider that a good set of plans allows for competitive bidding, prevents expensive construction errors and increases the value of the end product through superior design, the plans more than save their own cost. Therefore, NOT engaging in a design process is the most expensive route a client can generally take. |
So true...however there are also occasions that the Architect will opt for the more expensive choices in order to preserve the integrity of the design. However, the cost of the Architect does offset the cost of a bad building. And as far as Architects not being involved in residential design, I'm currently working on 3 residential projects as we speak and the fact is, similarly to fashion designers, the Architects who work on residential projects tend to set the example of what constitutes a good design that is then mocked...I mean copied by accountants and their developer friends.
The definition of "commodity" that was posted above certainly rings economic truth however I am still adamant that Architecture cannot be commodified, even when businessmen desperately have tried for decades. In fact, if one believes in economic Darwinism, why hasn't anyone truly made a killing by commodifying Architecture? The ones who have are the most obvious...Big Developers. All else is tiddly shit. Buying plans online is great!! Now an owner has a set of "blueprints" sitting on their kitchen table and they haven't the faintest clue as to what to do with them, let alone know the difference between a good window sill design or a bad one. What about the weatherproofing, the materials choices, the R-values, are there areas that can be improved, can they add or subtract, what about warranties, errors and omissions, etc, etc? Any builder looking for a quick buck would love to meet a client like that. There's a reason an Architect contracts with the client, and not the GC. Otherwise, the GC is the fox guarding the hen house...
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1776
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I don't think most people believe that AIA line that an architect will save money. They mostly think the opposite is true. If architects where driving the style I guess we would all be living in modern style houses by now. Certainly builders (like architects) have to look out for their own interests. I've seen poor work that resulted in problems to the client from both groups but by far the worst has been from architects. Thank Gehry for showing us what great design is all about.
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Chris Stewart
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birgco
Joined: 01 May 2007
Posts: 302
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've seen poor work that resulted in problems to the client from both groups but by far the worst has been from architects. |
Attaboy Chris, let's get an early start on WWIII. 
It might be a bit more constructive to say that a good architect or a good GC/builder will create value for the client. Everyone knows what something costs but how many people really know what something is worth? If a client is looking for a great job on the cheap, he or she will probably get exactly what they have paid for. |
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modjohn
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sure that an architect will add value to large projects whether they are commercial or residential. But, I am not sure this applies as well to the average consumer home. Plus, it would seem that it would take almost as much time to oversee a small project (site visits, bids, etc.) as a larger project even though the larger project generates a larger fee. There has to be a hassle/profit breakeven point. |
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