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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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We must be loosing our edge... anyone care to hurl an insult, or are we all going to lapse into complacency?  |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1859
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:34 am Post subject: |
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This could get boring real fast.
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Chris Stewart
Modern Texas Home Project |
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SDR
millennium club
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1712
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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*San Francisco calling*
Let's just declare a giant-love-in, wherein we all confess to both envying and failing to honor or perhaps adequately appreciate the burdens and the advantageous experiences of our brother and colleague, on his side of our common playing field.
I relish the simplicity of the "architectural" problem I give myself: how to most honestly, simply, robustly, usefully and (I hope) beautifully arrange a few boards of wood into what the world calls a "table." That surely shortcuts the long trail that the architect of buildings, and the builder of architecture, must travel, but even so it is a challenge.
The builder who designs, and the designer who builds, are not really so far apart. . .are they ?
SDR |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:56 am Post subject: |
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If you can get the table legs all exactly the same length, I salute you!
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csintexas
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1859
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Are there any good woodworking forums where we can argue over whether a chair is a chair?
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Chris Stewart
Modern Texas Home Project
Last edited by csintexas on Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1968
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The builder who designs, and the designer who builds, are not really so far apart. . .are they ? |
Well, lovefests can leave us diseased so let's move on...(hahaha)...I think the above question is a great question that merits some debate. It looks simple, doesn't it? BUt once one truly starts to formulate their BEST answer, you should find the "complexities & contradictions" of this question...I used quotation marks to highlight the famous book title and related "movement" (my favorite...NOT) PoMo. I think it's not fair to assume that there is really an equal footing, and equal ground that everyone is atnding on in this profession, so in a way, almost anything could be argued to be true, hence the problem of PoMo. So the builder that designs is acceptable in that line of thinking. A person who is a professional builder, a fabricator of buildings, who then designs what s/he builds could be on equal ground as the designer of buildings who decides s/he will now build what s/he designs. I guarantee they will be so far removed from one another, but then again, all personal experiences move us away from one another.
However, what this does not connsider is the question outside of the question; do builders that focus on building, build better buildings than the builder that decides to also design? And vice-versa; do architects that focus on design, design better buildings than the architect that decides to also build? I would think the answer is obvious and lends to the first question.
I think this goes back to some lessons of theory we covered in architectural design courses, that even intuitive design must have a basis for being incorporated in the final product. All decisions lead to one thing: does it make the building better? We all know that to choose constructability over aesthetics is not "better", nor is choosing "lipstick" over constructability any better. I think the best builders are the ones that understand the design and even how to design but they ought to remain focused on the task at hand which is build. And in that line of thinking I think the best designers are those who understand constrcution but ought to leave the hammer swinging to the guys in the field. In fact (coming full circle)...
No, they are not the same thing. The bulder that designs is a designer at that moment and will be judged for his/her design and vice versa; the designer that builds will be judged on their building means and methods. And keep in mind they will be compared to the rest of the professionals of said field who do focus on their professions with diligence and care...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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RSCarcht
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 92
Location: USA: RI, CT, NY, MA, FL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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It seems that the people in the Design Forum are generally passionate about what they do, whether they are architects, builders or designers. Everyone declares that aspiring to excellence is a worthy and proper thing. But we are all preaching to the choir. The problem comes from the fact that the building industry has promoted quantity over quality for so long that the general public has little to no idea what quality design is anymore.
The work of architects should be depreciated over 40 (if not 100!) years so cutting a 1 or 2% from the cost is fairly meaningless in the big picture (and frequently increases life cycle cost 10-20%).
I would say that architecture should be a craft and fine art form (even when the project is affordable housing). Each building should the one custom suit that any family or organization ever buys for itself. Instead, I would observe that society as a whole treats building like a disposable good bought from Wal-Mart. I am grateful for our good clients who undertand that quality has an upfront cost that will save them money and frustration down the road and am sorry to look around and see so much low quality design and construction still being done. I hope that Design Forum can play a role in helping educte a broader segment of of society to these facts.
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Ross Sinclair Cann, AIA APA
http://www.a4arch.com |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Economics-wise, it might appear that if architects aspire to a Fine Art / Craft practice, their thinking is unrealistic, pretentious pie-in-the-sky stuff. However, if we look to the design quality of, say, flowers in a meadow or basking sharks in the north atlantic, perhaps it is, in this perspective, not unreasonable for humans to aspire to the same sort of design quality when contributing to the overal global environment.
The more I see the world of human affairs running on economics, the angrier I get. It is a trashing of human potential. |
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 596
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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At issue is the fact that, generally, political and business communities these days lack a wider cultural perspective and, when they don't, they regard this as a leisure pursuit. Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of Art.  |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1859
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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The industry does not "promote quantity over quality". Consumers ask for it and the industry (regardless of whether it is builders or designers) provides the service people are willing to pay for.
Everyone knows what quality design is, they just are not willing to pay for it.
Unfortunately the total cost of a structure throughout it's life is impossible to accurately predict and the finance system is not geared to that long range view. Certainly we would be better off if we, as a society, considered the real cost of our structures. I don't see how I can effect that change though.
Society as a whole does not treat buildings like a disposable good bought from Wal-Mart. Every person I have worked for cares about their house and wants it to serve them well. You seem to have unrealistic ideas about the average home buyer, builders, and society in general.
I think the design forum (and the internet in general) have great potential to help us improve our built environment but it will take active involvement
from us. I consider educating the public to be my obligation as a professional. I created a website dedicated to educating my clients and improving our built environment. Good architecture has to be more than just talk. I think that the AIA has done an extremely poor job of public education.
I agree with solidred. Good architecture is a social issue. Our built environment is a reflection of our values. Money is a terrible drain to human potential.
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Chris Stewart
Modern Texas Home Project |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1968
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Society as a whole does not treat buildings like a disposable good bought from Wal-Mart. |
Actually, if we accepted the idea that buildings are indeed being treated as Wal-Mart-esque commodities by the general public (cheaper + bigger + replaceable), many issues fall into place. And I blame more the industry than the general public...it's the McDonaldization of design, where one company tries to out-commodify the other by offering less meaningful work...soon it's all trans-fats and no substance. It's the publics fault they love BURGERS and FRIES...!
Oh, don't forget my DIET coke...extra large.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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The Architect
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:43 am Post subject: |
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"Architecture: Commodity or Complex craft"
Neither!!
Take care... |
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SDR
millennium club
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1712
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Both !!
Have a nice day. |
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RSCarcht
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 92
Location: USA: RI, CT, NY, MA, FL
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like we fought a five round bout to a stand off! I tend to agree with MX2 against CSintexas that the public asks for what broader cultural forces dictate. "Lifestyles of the rich and famous!: --"Madonna has a Jacuzzi in her kitchen!" "Donald Trump's house is 40,000sf and every inch has been covered in 24 karat gold!!
With the dumbing down and polarization of society these challenges will only become greater. I have noticed a bifurcation in education: school funds are cut so the better-off send their kids to private school and at the next vote their are even fewer supporters for public education and funds are cut further causing more parents to flee the system and the cycle repeats.
So the ultimate answer to the “commodity or craft" question is both: “commodity” if you are working in the mainstream where the only qualities desired are size and glitz and "craft" if you are lucky enough to work for the shrinking group of well-funded well-educated clients. Architecture used to be a shared art that everyone enjoyed, even if only from the outside. More and more it is hidden on Caribbean islands, in Aspen or behind locked gates.
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Ross Sinclair Cann, AIA APA
http://www.a4arch.com |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1968
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Chicken or egg? The public certainly has "power" by consumption however what's being provided equally influences the market. In the Drug War, the issue has always re-surfaced that the demand for drugs has circumvented all efforts to crush production. Yet, take the fashion world and what the designers create influences new buying trends, and in cyclical renewal of these trends (they revigorate the market regularly which generates interest to buy). Architects on the other hand mostly dish out the same chicken shit salad to chicken shit audiences who get all hot and bothered when they see Gehry/Hadid/Koolhaas/Libeskind projects....and then the public wants a piece of that. So, which comes first?
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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