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pgw
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Omaha, NE
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'll start with my conclusion which is to hire a structural engineer to come out and inspect the roof structure and offer an opinion. Or at the minimum, get a builder to come out and give an estimate for what you described and have him/her look at it and my guess is they will all say that the columns, especially the center one, is structural. The trusses bear on some beam that spans that wall opening and what would have to be done is to basically remove the roof, modify the trussing, re-build the roof the way you want so that it clear spans the opening. All that just so that you could get rid of the column.
Or....since it is simply a decorative gesture (and a good one) then you could keep the column, but build a fin wall in between the two garages to better delineate the the separation by making the new wall enclose the thin column and maybe even clad it in matching brick veneer. Then instead of building one large dormer over the two garages, I would prefer to see the two entrances featured and build two smaller dormers that could extend out maybe 5 feet supported by two columns and redirect the entrance stairs to face the street, with a new walkway that leads directly to the sidewalk. The two dormers would reduce the scale of the length even better and by focusing on the entrance, rather than the garage it makes the separate homes more inviting and intimate. Also, I would invest in some landscaping features, or at least a few trees. Landscape goes a long way on return of investment. Anyway, my two cents...
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and if at all possible, pave the driveways with brick and leave a landscape strip in between the two; wide enough to accommodate a couple of nice hedges/bushes/ground cover (no trees here since their roots will destroy the driveway)...
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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I just noticed the overhead lines (power?)...they are in the strangest angle...why? I would call the utility company and have them relocate the lines if at all possible...it's a tough sell but it would be worth the try I think...okay, last bit of advice...I need a beer now. 
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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phansford
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: SW Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Ahhhh...... 1950's ranchburger.
The first thing you need to determine is your budget. I am assuming this will remain a income/rental property for you. Before you run off and start tossing dormers on the roof, you might need to define some of the constraints. You have already named one - structural/seismic. Some others are budget, the rental market, return on investment, and so on. And whatever investment you make, will it equate to getting the units rented. ie: Will a unit with a renovated bath or kitchen rent faster than unit with curb appeal but a trashed interior space.
The structural/seismic might be your biggest issue. Some jurisidictions are requiring you to bring a building to currect seismic code during a renovation. You really need to talk to a structural engineer or an architect in the area concerning code requirements. You might not want to start fooling with the roof only to find out you know have to add a lot of seimic connections to the whole building.
The local town could have special laws concerning rental properties, which might direct your investment dollars elsewhere.
mx2 has given you some good ideas for the design. However, just as mx2 recommended and due to the regional nature of residential design and construction, you would be better served by contacting a local designer or architect to assist you.
FWIW - I would try to convince you to spend money where it is going to effect your return. Kitchen, bath, new flooring, landscaping will go much further than appling "decorative" items such as fake dormers, which might increase curb appeal, but not necessarily produce the type of renters and income you are seeking for your investment.
I think the simple things that mx2 recommended might produce the curb appeal you are looking to achieve. New driveway, new landscaping, new exterior lighting and colors. Tallk with a local landscape architect, some of which are assiciated with a local nursery/garden center/landscape contractor.
Good luck.
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Good advice phansford...I agree. I was actually focused solely on the posters idea for a design, but essentially you make good suggestions. I am sure that the new buyer is aware of most of what you say though, since they were recently in the market to buy such an investment property...and I also assume the interior spaces are so great that they need no more work which is why the investors wish to focus on curb appeal. The best part of investing in curb appeal is it adds to the value of the neighborhood and often inspires others t invest in their properties...but not always. 
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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Orkblork
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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pgw
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Omaha, NE
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I bought this place with the intention of occupying one side once I demo'd the interior and to make it feel like a cozy western retreat -- alder doors and trim, rustic tile in the bath, refinished wood floors, etc. You may be right about saving the money and putting it on the inside where I can make a difference in rental income and personal comfort. It'a a neighborhood of well kept homes and this is the only rental on the street -- grandfathered in under current zoning. Last thing I need is to be forced to retrofit the whole thing with ties or mobilize the neighbors just to put a new face on the place.
I definitely plan to add some landscaping and fix the drive. I like the idea of two separate dormers but that would probably almost double the cost. I'll check into getting the power line moved but it the one in the pic actually goes to the house next door. Any other thoughts on how to make it less homely would be appreciated.
As long as we're talking about expensive, cosmetic fixes that add marginal value does anyone have any advise on my other fantasy about vaulting the ceiling in the living area of my unit? Snce this place was built in the mid '50's is has rafters and ceiling joists rather than trusses. My approach was going to be to tear out the ceiling plaster but leave the joists for the moment, put strong backs at the ridge to reinforce the roof, then sister 1/2 plywood to the rafters sufficient in depth to add another 2x6 under the existing rafter and finally to stagger another piece of plywood on the other side to provide more stability. THEN, remove the joist, insulate the rafters and finish the ceiling in carsiding.
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Orkblork
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | put strong backs at the ridge to reinforce the roof |
I don't know what you mean by a strongback, which -- at least where I am located -- is a different thing than what makes sense here.
Making a cathedral ceiling work structurally is far more science than art, so there's no need to wing it. In a conventional rafter and joist roof, the joists serve to 1.) support the ceiling finish below; and 2.) tie the ends of the rafters together, which keeps the rafters from doing what they otherwise would do: spread apart at the bottom, pushing the tops of the walls outward and causing the ridge to drop. If you're going to remove the joists, you need to compensate directly for their loss.
One fairly straightforward (but not cheap) way is to substitute a fixed or structural ridge beam for the 2x ridge board that is probably there now. A ridge beam (3 microlams or something like that) would be located right under/tight to the existing ridge board. It would sit on a post in the outside wall and be supported at convenient points (perhaps 12' apart) along its length in the house interior by posts extending down through the house to a structural base, i.e., to a footing under the house or under the basement slab, as applies. Because this new ridge beam would be much stronger than the old ridge board, the ridge won't drop (and the walls won't spread) when the ceiling joists are removed.
You can also make a cathedral ceiling by installing metal tie rods in place of the joists -- much simpler than the above, but not everyone's aesthetic cup of tea. Sometimes you can delete every other or every third wood joist if the roof is plywooded and well-screwed together.
Adding additional rafter ties in the upper third of the roof usually doesn't work well unless the rafters are quite stiff; i.e., the roof will spread anyway because the ties are not near the rafter ends.
Flying buttresses work beautifully, but may be a hair overstated for a ranch house.
As for adding rafter depth, I assume you would do this for insulation. I don't know the insulation requirements where you are, but you may be able to get sufficient R value in the existing rafters by using Icynene or another full-cavity blown-in system... and you won't need a ridge vent or vapor barrier to boot.
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Orkblork is right in one sense, you cannot remove roof joists without having some negative effect on the roof structure...but I would caution against attempting to re-engineer an existing 1950's roof system (assuming it's from that era), despite the seemingly simple solutions. The problem lies in the loads and stresses put on the structural members and they all work as one system...cut one piece and who knows how the system has been weakened, unless fully analyzed and re-calculated, preferrably by a licensed engineer. Also consider your HVAC ductwork, insulation and even ceiling finish ...you may need asbestos testing and possible mitigation, if you it was built before the 1970's. But an asbestos abatement report should have been issued when you bought the property, if not it's worth thinking about at least. Also consider crawl space for any ductwork or other conduit.
But more importantly, to switch from essentially a rafter/joist roof framing to a rafter/rafter tie and/or collar tie system (basically becomes trusses) is not recommended without new calculations. But for sure your proposal is not a feasible one as it will destabilize the roof structure. I'll end with where I started...get and engineer out to inspect your house to review these ideas of yours. It could be dangerous (to your investment as well as you body) otherwise. You may want to simply opt to expose the joists and spruce them up (stain, paint connection plates black, etc) ...since you were looking for a rustic feel anyway.
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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pgw
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Omaha, NE
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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What I meant by a strongback is boards or plywood pieces of sufficient size attached at the point where the rafters meet the ridge so a to form a triangle. It's my understanding that in some instances these ties allow you to remove the ceiling joist thereby creating the desired effect. Of course, the result is a flat spot at the top of the cathedral ceiling. Again, my lack of knowledge may be showing but I've seen that done here in my area -- without the heavier snow load and seismic issues of this area.
I like the compromise of simply exposing the rafters, removing those that can be removed and dressing them up. The more I listen to you guys, the more reasons I'm finding to use a minimalist approach with this remodel.
Thanks, again.
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Orkblork
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What I meant by a strongback is boards or plywood pieces of sufficient size attached at the point where the rafters meet the ridge so a to form a triangle |
I would call this a gusset. This works to the extent that a) a perfectly rigid connection can be achieved at the ridge (very hard to do) and b) the roof rafters are particularly stiff (which they likely are not). You can picture the outcome if the ridge connection holds but the rafters are weak: The rafters will bend and splay, pushing the walls outward and causing the ridge to drop/droop -- even though the ridge connection itself stays intact.
| Quote: | | Orkblork is right in one sense... but |
I'm glad you made your several points to the original poster, mx2, but there's no need to word your post as if I was remiss. I don't have time to write a comprehensive analysis -- structural or otherwise -- of the situation, which is why addressed the salient part of it. Fact is, every structural alteration ought to be approved by a structural engineer, and nearly every alteration requires attention to haz mat, HVAC, etc., so your points are additional to my own; they don't make my point "right in one sense" and (by implication) wrong in other senses.
You and I could perhaps have some useful conversations, mx2, but you get no slack due to the offensive and unapologetic way you have addressed me in the past.
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Gusset plates are not sufficient to replicate the bottom tension of a roof joist, and neither are collar ties or even rafter ties (which is what the poster is refferring to) only because there exact location and type of attachment and size of member have to be calculated in order to provide adequate lateral support...they could be deisgned to achieve what pgw wishes but I am sure we've beat this dead horse to a pulp...an engineer has to get involved at that level.
As for the rest of the comments by Orkblork, until he apologizes for insulting my daughter, I could care less what he thinks...
mx2.5
_________________
*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 2243
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I think phansford had good advise.
I don't know what it would be like having a car without cover during the winter there (a carport may be a desirable addition)
I would nix the dormers paint the garage doors and column to match the brick (or some dark color) so as to make them less prominent and spend on landscaping.
Talk to a builder and your city building department.
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http://bcshdb.blogspot.com >
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Orkblork
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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[/quote]Gusset plates are not sufficient to replicate the bottom tension of a roof joist | Quote: |
No kidding, Sherlock -- I already acknowledged that.
| Quote: | As for the rest of the comments by Orkblork, until he apologizes for insulting my daughter, I could care less what he thinks...
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Is English your second or third language, Moron Xtralarge? I didn't insult your daughter, I insulted YOU.
And anyway, given that your very first response to me EVER on this messageboard was an insult for which you have repeatedly refused to acknowledge (let alone apologize for) you are owed nothing but insults from me.
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