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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
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Location: San Francisco
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 Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: Lies, and the lying liers who. . . |
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The NY Times
May 7, 2006
Editorial
The Intelligence Business
We've been waiting for well over two years for the Senate Intelligence Committee to finally hold the Bush administration accountable for the fairy tales it told about Saddam Hussein's weapons. Republican leaders keep saying it is a waste of time to find out whether President Bush and other top officials deliberately misled the world. But Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's bizarre responses the other day to questions about that very issue were a timely reminder of why this investigation needs to be completed promptly, thoroughly and fairly.
Unfortunately, Pat Roberts, the chairman of the Senate panel, is running it in a way that makes it unlikely that anything useful will come of it.
It is bad enough that Mr. Rumsfeld and others did not tell Americans the full truth — to take the best-case situation — before the war. But they are still doing it. Just look at the profoundly twisted version of events that the defense secretary offered last week at a public event in Atlanta.
Ray McGovern, an analyst for 27 years at the Central Intelligence Agency, stood in the audience and asked why Mr. Rumsfeld lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The secretary shot back, "I did not lie." Then, even though no one asked about them, he said Colin Powell and Mr. Bush offered "their honest opinion" based on "weeks and weeks" of time with the C.I.A. "I'm not in the intelligence business," he said, adding, "It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there."
First, there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Period. Second, neither Mr. Bush nor Mr. Powell spent long weeks with the C.I.A., whose analysts were largely cut out of the decision making. And that was because, third, Mr. Rumsfeld was, and is, very much in the intelligence business.
The Defense Department controls most of the intelligence budget and is the biggest user of intelligence. Mr. Rumsfeld also set up his own intelligence agency within the Pentagon when the C.I.A. and the State Department refused to tell him what he wanted to hear about Iraq. It was that office's distortions that formed the basis for what the administration told Congress and the public.
In Atlanta, Mr. Rumsfeld denied ever saying flatly that there were dangerous weapons in Iraq. Actually, he did, many times, even as late as March 30, 2003. On Sept. 27, 2002, Mr. Rumsfeld said there was "bulletproof" evidence of ties between Al Qaeda and Iraq, including that Iraq had trained Qaeda agents in chemical and biological warfare, and he repeated that myth in response to Mr. McGovern.
Which brings us back to the Senate committee. In 2004, Democratic members agreed to split the investigation of Iraq intelligence. The committee issued a report on how bad the information was, but put off until after the 2004 election the question of whether the administration deliberately hyped the evidence. Mr. Roberts tried to kill the investigation entirely, and after the Democrats forced him to proceed, he set rules that seem a lot like the recipe for a whitewash.
The investigation, known as Phase 2, is divided into five parts: Did officials' public statements reflect the actual intelligence? Why did the government fail to anticipate the postwar disaster in Iraq? Were there actually any W.M.D. in Iraq? Was the Pentagon's mini-C.I.A. a proper and legal operation? And did any of the disinformation provided by the Iraqi exile leader Ahmad Chalabi get into any "intelligence product"?
Mr. Roberts has so gummed up the first part of the investigation that it is going to take forever to complete and is unlikely to be of much clarity. The only public statements that matter are those by Mr. Bush and his top aides. But Mr. Roberts included any statement, by any public official, including members of Congress, going back to 1991.
Beyond dragging out the process further, the intent, obviously, is to suggest that Mr. Bush said the same things that Democratic senators and others did. That has no significance. They did not decide to have a war and had access only to the sanitized intelligence fed to them by the administration. Bill Clinton and Mr. Bush's father did think there were dangerous weapons in Iraq — back in the 20th century. By the time the war started, those weapons had long been eliminated by inspections and sanctions.
It is worth knowing why policy makers failed to anticipate the insurgency and other postwar nightmares, but the structure of this part of the investigation is flawed as well. The Senate investigation of Mr. Chalabi's involvement is limited to "intelligence products," which the C.I.A. produces. But it was not the C.I.A. that predicted rose petals in Baghdad and a virtually problem-free transition to democracy; it was Mr. Chalabi and his henchmen, creatures of Mr. Rumsfeld's team at the Pentagon. And it was the intelligence business that Mr. Rumsfeld now pretends not to run that used Mr. Chalabi's myths in an attempt to rebut the skeptical State Department and make dubious information seem more reliable.
It was helpful of Mr. Rumsfeld to remind us why this inquiry is still so important. The least Mr. Roberts and his committee can do is to finish the flawed investigation and make the results public.
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"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: Nightmare Revisited...Shia versus Sunni Civil War...Perfect? |
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SDR...amongst the lies which brought America into this Iraqi 5 Alarm catastrophe...will someone assure me that this latest anarchy atmosphere of Sunni killing Shia in Iraq, and vice verse... is NOT EXACTLY OUR INTENTIONS?
I have felt so perplexed, exasperated, devastated at the stupidity of my own government, and their lies, and their blatherings...might this CATASTROPHE WITHIN THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY BE EXACTLY WHAT THE red-white-blue DOCTOR INTENDED ALL ALONG?
Aren't we looking at the 80s Pesian Gulf Islamic conflict, i.e., Iranian-Shia versus Iraqi-Sunni from the 80s all over again?
Islamic versus Islamic, let them kill each other as best they can, while we claim "Freedom" and "Democracy" slogans?
Who is having the most fun here?
Forget our rage and bitter disgust of the war, this diabolic nightmare I am having says some people are ecstatic, and can't believe their Machivellian luck, keeping the WAR GOING!!???
The inmates have taken over the asylum, but we all knew that.
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: |
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interesting to see Bush and the gang doing a remarkable two-step shuffle.
Rice very publicly thanked Turkey for its help negotiating over the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier (after the Israelis had first kidnapped Palestinians - but lets not be petty). She thanked Turkey profusely and ignored Israel.
Then Rumsfeld again very publicly cancelled his trip to Israel because of what is happening in Gaza.
The Israeli response, up to the expected level of diplomacy, is to ban Palestinian-Americans and also Americans who are members of humanitarian organizations. My favourite response from an American was simple and to the point "not one more dollar."
The obscure part of the whole sorry saga has been the role played by Israel. The notion of destabilizing Middle Eastern countries to reduce them to warring tribal factions is a well-known extremist Israeli view (Jabotinsky's notion for a Greater Israel).
Iraq has been a tragedy for America and for Iraq. However the Iraqis can recover from this if the Americans, even if leaving garrison troops at bases, intend to withdraw their main forces. If there is no US attack on Syria or Iran, then the Middle East can begin to sort itself out, if - and only if - Israel is contained.
Bush paid Israel back for its treachery to America by agreeing so blankly to the Gaza "pullout" (the creation of a ghetto). But at each stage Bush has pulled back just enough. Just enough to leave Israel exposed.
Sure he repeated over and over and over that of course America would stand by Israel if it was attacked, always "if". Never once has he implied that America would help Israel if it was the aggressor.
Pay-back time. Call it "Operation Liberty".
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: Operation Liberty? Operation MIDDLE EAST FAILURE!? |
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Rich and SDR... more grotesque news from the middle east... Israel bombing and strafing in Lebanon...more civilian deaths.
Back on the Iraqi situation, I know the VERY EXPENSIVE, CATASTROPHIC American efforts in Iraq are doomed...be-cause...
Iraqi troops are not being paid!
IRAQI TROOPS ARE NOT BEING PAID!
I heard it on Air America this morning, a Cleveland journalist just back from Iraq was telling Jerry Springer...Springer on the Radio...that the Iraqi troops never have consistency with their paychecks, and sometimes are not paid at all!
How can we have the Bush government go to Congress, bleed 250-350-450 Billion dollars from the American people, AND send/SACRIFICE our sons/daughters, who are inadequately protected into this UNWINNABLE civil/religious war, then...
NOT CONSISTENTLY PAY THE IRAQI TROOPS!
Where the HELL IS THE HALF-TRILLION DOLLARS GOING?
...It is not going to give consistent electricity to Baghdad!!!
...It is not giving them clean water.
...It is certainly not giving the Iraqis security!
...Is it spent giving our GIs more protection? No!
Does America aim for solultions, OR ARE WE GUARANTEEING FAILURE IN THIS MESS!
Back to my nightmare, I REALLY think the American government wants that endless tribal warfare among the Islamic factions...keep them weak!
Hell, if we PAID THE IRAQI TROOPS CONSISTENTLY, might they not have the incentive to resolve the problems on their own? Please, someone kill that logic! Who thought up that idea, kill him too?!!
Is there an architect out there who works for free, somewhere in this world? Is there a postal room worker somewhere out there who works for free?
What GENIUS THOUGHT UP THIS IDEA? "Make sure the Iraqis don't have a consistent paycheck, that will inspire them, sure! And then send them out shoulder-to-shoulder with our American sons and daughters!"
Cut and run from this quicksand of stupidity! We are killing ourselves too.
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ed
you are exactly right - get the American troops out fast.
In case it was not reported in your media, Israel raided Gaza and kidnapped two Palestinians (that is why the Palestinians kidnapped an Israeli). The Israeli used heavy weaponry to murder a family on a beach - no mistake, no misunderstanding and very very far from the first time.
the person who thought of this crazy scenario was called Jabotinsky.
basically two nutty theories collide. Israel is pursuing the dream of Greater Israel. This has two requirements. 1. The expulsion or the Holocaust of the Palestinians (Israelis do not give a stuiff which). 2. the disruption of all (repeat ALL) Middle East countries to reduce them to small warring tribes.
Israel - a nation whose troops are proud to use cannon and rockets to target children - will then feel 'big'.
Not very subtle. Nothing to do with Judaism. Nothing to do with security.
The other theory is from the Neo-Cons/PNAC which requires that Israel fights the 'final battle' (called Armaggedon) in the Jordan Valley and those those few Israelis who survive must, and I quote: "convert or burn".
But back to reality.
To attack Lebanon and to cause yet more suffering in Beirut is an obscenity.
Either America is actively participating in what Israel is doing or the Neo-Cons are pushing Israel to a point of no return.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: My nutty theory I mentioned before: Palestinian Gulags-Iraq? |
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Like a fly on the wall, as I think I mentioned before, of overhearing the preposterous remarks several years ago... that the Iraqi incursion would give America/Israel a controlled place to deport Palestinians...sort of a Gulag of last resort... Gulag de Iraq.
Same conversation... "Like they did to the Boers and the American Indians... ghettos, reservations, gulags... two societies that could not coexist, what did history do with such problems, short of extermination?"
I thought it was a ridiculous, outrageous comment at the time. Now, with insanity ruling, nothing seems ridiculous.
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SDR
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it's all too easy to move from reality (whatever that is) to fantasy; rumor is often compounded of a mixture of the two -- with some wishful thinking thrown in ?
I really don't think the US Government (much less the citizenry) have anything against the Palestinians; it's just that the government seems unable to distance itself from its Friend And Ally, Israel -- without much input one way or the other from the bulk of the public, though with much lobbying from a segment of it, no doubt. Yet we all suffer from the resultant appearance (reinforced by sixty years of behavior) of pro-Israel bias in the Middle East.
SDR |
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SDR
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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PS -- With the editing function seemingly disabled, I can't correct the unconscionable spelling of "liars" in the heading of this thread. . .
SDR
_________________
"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
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Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Chaos versus Harmony |
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SDR and Rich... great subject matter, in a horrible time.
Did any one culture cause this catastrophe? No.
Did any one idealism or theology cause this? No.
Add up all the little bits and bytes and comments and slights...bang zoom, you have a cauldron of chaos. In 521 BC, you had the Assyrians destroying Jerusalem, enslaving the Jews. 2500 years later, same ugly scenario, in reverse.
If you took all the Jews out and put them on Neptune, and took all the Americans out, and put them on Saturn... what would you have?
Probably exactly what we have today...caveman aggressive attitudes, brother against brother.
In my humble, non-academic opinion, at the end of the day, some individuals are pre-disposed towards harmonious lives, and some are pre-disposed towards injurious/warring lifestyles. But history repeats and repeats and repeats... cultures rise to incredible heights, only to be destroyed by warring factions... Harmony is always defeated by Chaos. Great cultures rise in harmonious times, and are defeated/collapse in chaotic times. Constant swinging of the pendelum, harmony and chaos over all recorded history.
What kind of madness wants this chaos? The answer is: Human madness, from the beginning of time.
God is not listening to my prayers for peace.
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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This is becoming too horrendous for words but it is - strangely - fascinating.
The culture ? Ah, now that is curious.
I read Israeli papers to see what Israelis say to each other - the pure hatred and venom is beyond description. Any country that says 'cool it a bit' comes in for abuse and threats. Europe of course (Israel's main trading partner), but the antiamericanism is just .....
America has to understand that despite its massive supoport and generosity to Israel, its vicious little friend is a traitor to America, at all levels and in all ways. America is in Iraq because of Israeli extremist policy. When news of the 9.11 attacks came out, Benjamin Netanyahu was DELIGHTED.
So what is going on ?
Well, Israel is a Middle Eastern nation - a Semitic nation, among others.
| Quote: | | So long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people, greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as you are. |
- Lawrence of Arabia.
Just think of Israelis as another tribe and it starts to make sense.
And the link with 2000 years of European culture ? That exists among those still in Europe - but appears to have zero influence in Israel - a little people, a silly people.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: Too many people, too little real estate... |
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God was never in the real estate business, but we hear from all sides... "God gave us this land, and we will die defending what God gave us".
The be-all, end-all question for me is ... "What does one do, when two opposing cultures, blood relatives of each other, want the exact same piece of real estate, and they are willing to kill each other to take it, and kill each other to keep it?"
The immovable object collides with the unbending force.
5 possible culture-clash scenarios in the history of man?!
A. Stronger force exterminates weaker force. (Amerindian Holocaust).......or.....
B. Stronger force expels weaker to foreign location (Armenian Holocaust)
.......or.....
C. Stronger force enslaves weaker force (Roman Model?)
.......or......
D. Contentious coexistence, never-ending hostilities. (Israel/Palestine)
.......or.....
E. Peaceful assimilation and coexistence (Ideal, semi-fictional American Model?)
Now that I think about it... cruelist-history tells us Extermination and Expulsion generally work in the short term, but with massive, long-term animosities.
Enslavement, and never-ending hostilities rarely work.
What have I missed? I certainly don't have any answers.
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SDR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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. . .but you do have some good questions. . .which are so easily ignored by the proud and the stubborn -- the enmeshed, as the psychologists might say ?
SDR |
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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What we are watching is pure, naked aggression.
The attacks on the Lebanese infrastructure, cities and people have no justification whatsoever. The howling racism blaming the Syrians or the Iranians is mere nonsense.
The history of the Zionists as they are today goes back to 1933 when they did a deal with Adolf Hitler.
Why should those who betrayed their own people (and incidentally whose terrorism included murdering Jews in Palestine, Iraq and elsewhere) have changed ?
Bush either intends to drag America into a major conflict or he is letting the Zionists show the world what they are really like.
Gaza is and was intended to be a Ghetto, just like those of Warsaw or Lublin - and those who harass and persecute, and eventually annihilate, those inside are Einsatz-Kommando. Same people.
We are watching the preparation for a Holocaust.
The poorly equipped people of Hezbollah and Hamas have tried to negotiate in the past, have had lengthy ceasefires, but still the Israeli jets and tanks come and kill children, always the Zionists target children.
And latest reports from Palestine are that the Zionists are using chemical weaponry (remember WMD ?) which ensure that the damage to children is massive.
America is sitting on a fence - and now the fence is on fire.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 482
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: No. |
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Rich, I don't agree with you. Elements of what you say may be true, and many, many statements you make are simply not true.
Is there only one to blame in this mess, or is everyone to blame, with horrors on all sides, and inequalities, and unfairness and atrocities since the time of Moses? Look at Arafat, and the alleged 20 billion he stole from his own people. What that money could have done to improve the Palestinians lot, especially in the Gaza ghetto! Look at America, what good we could have done with that half-trillion to Iraq which has evaporated into civil war, and what good did we try to do? It will be $5 per gallon, 10 overseas in a very short time, for all the corruption that has taken place.
How ironic to me that two cultures, Syrian/Assyrian/Hezbollah?, and Judaic, across 2500 years of history, one culture to sit in place, and the other to roam the earth, and they meet again to fight, over basically the same real estate.
So Rich, everyone knows the problems, everyone blames somebody else, how about giving me solutions to a 3500 year old problem.
PS...I don't have any solutions either, nobody else has answers, no blame if you don't have an answer.
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel." |
- David Ben-Gurion, first Prime Minister of Israel.
Ed, the solution is almost depressingly simple.
I am not going into the endless details. There has been a call for a ceasefire and an international force to move into south Lebanon to help the Lebanese army deploy there (in other words to act as a very broad buffer against trouble). What is wrong with that ?
And if you do not think that Gaza is a ghetto, then take a look at Yad Vashem's own website, see how the establishment, running and persecution of the ghettoes was done.
Don't take my word for it. Former Israeli Minister Tommy Lapid said that the pictures of an elderly Palestinian woman picking through the rubble of her bulldozer-crushed home reminded him of his own grandmother picking through the ruins of her home in Poland. She died at Auschwitz.
The odds are heavily on a broad war. At the start of this dangerous farce nearly five years ago, the Pentagon said that American losses from a widened Middle East war would be over fifty million. America has already over 55,000 seriously wounded, as well as the number who have died. What for ?
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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