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heavytimberman
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Chicago
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 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: money in architecture? |
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Can one make a good living from working at a big firm?
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lekizz
millennium club
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1218
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: |
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It depends what you want from your career. If you are talking about money, then big firms can sometimes pay higher salaries and the job is more secure.
Big firms can also be in a stronger position to give financial support/leave entitlement for college and other training courses. And you can work with a wide variety of construction professionals.
But then there are some large signature firms that pay sh*t wages for the 'privelege' of working there!
If you are starting on your career then you should consider what type of work you want to do. You may spend months (or years) doing door schedules or ceiling layouts in a large firm, whilst with a small practice you will be involved with every aspect of your job. |
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heavytimberman
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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What is an average starting salary out of school and one after about 5 years at say a big firm? I am currently just a student but I am doing very well at an accredited 5 year undergrad and am also joint majoring in structual engineering. Afterwards i'm debating wether to get a masters in architecture or structual or civil engineering. I don't know which is worth the time? But I fear that when I exit school I will work at a crumby low paying job for two decades paying off massive school loans and not getting ahead. Don't get me wrong, I love architecture and design but I still want to be able to make money to live comfortably.
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mas17
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Location: kuala lumpur
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:36 am Post subject: |
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I totally agree...small firm is the best option if you wanna learn quick. The smaller, the better... upon graduation i worked for a small Paris based ofiice that started out a branch in kl. It was tough since there ware only 4 of us including one director. But I got my hands on almost every aspect of delivering the projects. from concept. 3d, presentation down to site management.
5 years later. i had alreadyhave all the experience and started my own firm. Now, I have 3 different firms working for me and i have the option to chose design projects that i am keen of putting my hands on.
But, the bottom line is...do it for passion..and the money will come in as a by product. Architecture is not business of trading or commodity. Dont strees yourself on how to make money. When you have the passion, you will design, produce and deliver with quality...then you dont have to look for money...it will come to you...
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norb
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: hello |
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BUNGALO OF PEACE
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Gimme a break with these scams...
Back to salaries: I agree with the others and have had the joy of experiencing both. Small firms give you all the opportunity and experience you can handle, and more. Plus you're included in many decision making aspects and your "value" is far greater than you get paid, unless you eventually begin bringing in clients...at which point you're ready to start thinking about branching out on your own. That should take about 10 years at least. And a Masters is not required. In fact approx. 90% (I'm guesstimating) of practicing architects in the US have their BArch's...and a license of course.
The big firms are typically corporations where the vast size of the logistics require that everything be departmentalized and structuralized. That means you will be put to work on specific tasks and you have to "do the time" before you move on "up". But the vertical movement is far greater than in a small firm and if you put in 10 years there, you will make decent money. Stay a lifetime and you will make bank...if there is a need and place for you. You're competing with a lot of other employees. I notice most are simply content with the stability, having kids, mortgages, etc..and stay right at their desks, seemingly growing old right at their keyboards, as happy as a mushroom. 
The salaries depend on the area but in the US I think starting average is generally around $20k/annum...at both types of firms. It's pretty crappy really. 10 years later you may be making approximately $10k - $20k more a year, but usually about $10k more at the larger firm, and exponentially on. I personally can't stand working for the larger firms as I don't like being pidgeon-holed and taken advantage of but the pay and stability is great. But I see zombies showing up at their desks 30 seconds before the bell rings to start work but 30 seconds after the bell rings to go home, they are gone. Now, if you have your Masters or better, have the Rome Prize fellowship under your belt and are quite a brilliant designer...then the sky is the limit and depends on what you have the gall to go for. In that case I would recommend going for your license and start your own firm asap, after putting in a tour at the more famous firms as a junior designer on the deisgn team in the design department.
Otherwise do like me, and most people, work as long as you can and get as much experience as you can, wherever you can. The more you learn the more you realize you have much more to learn. I certainly understand now why all architects say their best work is their next project...
I honestly prefer the Murcutt's of this world. If you love what you do, money is not the object. I drove a piece of sh*t for years, barely paid my rent and enjoyed my life working and learning a lot about everything...and nothing. I found joy in the detailing. But the minute I went to work at a big firm, I hated architecture. It was all about billable hours. But that's just me. What I noticed is that those who went straight to a large firm, right out of college, thrived in them. So ultimately that's my advice: pick one and go for it. You'll figure it all out very quickly. Most don't stay in the profession for more than a year anyway. But that's another topic.
mx2
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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TLWalkerAIA
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 130
Location: Seattle Washington, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:20 am Post subject: |
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In the U.S. There is little upward mobility in large or small firms. Sallaries are obviously constrained thereby.
STEP #1
Look around the large firm and ask yourself where are the 50 year old architects? Where did all those guys that built this big firm go? How many partners can a big firm have? Is there actually any future here?
STEP #2
Look around the small firm and ask yourself will I still have a job here when I am 50 years old? If you think you will have a career at this firm as it grows then go back to the Big Firm look at who is not there and repeat step #1.
If you want a career and good income, if your good, and you want to do your own work, you need to save as much money as you can. Build your own client base. Get your license and start your own practice. If you just want a job then plan on being somewhere else when you 50.
Ask them where the 50 year olds are.
Good advice.
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Terry L. Walker, Architects
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heavytimberman
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I like your advice. Are there an architecture or housing related fields that will yield a good salary while still allowing you to do some design work?
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heavytimberman
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Is there anyone here in development or construction?
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solidred
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 732
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi heavytimberman.
I read your question on the morning that I'm 1. working for a large architecture firm and 2. have just received a pay rise.
It may not be so relevant to you being in Chicago(?) and all but I'm about a decade out of graduate school in the UK and my new salary is £30,000 which is, at least, a nice round figure even if it won't make me rich.
The thing is, my grandfather was a successful businessman (M&E consultancy) and so I know, to an extent, the difference between being a salaried employee and going into business by oneself. Essentially, for all but the biggest corporation (and architecture) bigwigs, salaries provide you with an income to live more or less comfortably, but they'll never really provide you with Capital, i.e. savings substantial enough to give you a real sense of freedom in what you choose to do and when.
I've been thinking about this myself over the last week or two and so I can give you an example of something I've been thinking about: development, as you mention yourself.
OK, so, hypothetically speaking, I live in an apartment worth $200K, which was bought with a loan of $150K, which I pay back at a rate of $1K per month. Let's say I sell this apartment. This pays back the existing loan and leaves me my $50K in cash. Given that I'm a qualified architect, I look to another financier to loan me $150K not to buy an apartment but to build two apartments from scratch. Whilst I'm doing all this, I'm paying out $2000 per month, for the new loan and to rent an apartment. Once I build my two new apartments, I go live in one and sell the other for... $200K.
Now, let's say that my arithmetic and my valuations are all rather sloppy, but it looks like I've just got myself a rent-free apartment of my own designing, no loans to pay back any more and about $50-$100K in Capital to make more developments...
All whilst I keep on the day job.
Sounds rather good, huh? |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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I think, Heavy Timber, that you need to prioritize. If money is most important, there are better proffessions for you other than architecture. And I mean this seriously and humbly.
mx2
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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REO73
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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This can vary widely by the economy of the region you work. Some regions can support higher pay such as large metropolitan areas like NY and LA while others can't. A traditional Architecture job in a good region can get you 40-50K out of 80K+ once licensed. Bigger firms to start will probably pay more but turnover can also be high. As far as experience goes I think everyone should work in both arenas because there are advantages to both and things to be learned. Ultimately you will find what suits you best.
Now...in general architecture is not the most lucrative profession, far from in fact with the avg. salary being far lower than many other trained professionals. But, there is money out there for those who have talent in either design or project management. I am a licensed architect who manages product design and construction projects for a large national home builder and do quite well at age 32 (over 100K/yr). Because I am more of a project management type over a design type I found a job that suited my skill set best and am having a lot of fun doing it because I am both the owner and managing architect as well as the general contractor who gets to play with large budgets.
Ask yourself what excites you about architecture...design? construction? project management? structural design? and find out what opportunities exist for you because people will pay for talent. |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I want your job... 
Well said BTW. One point I wanted to pick up on; there is a fundamental difference between strictly architecture and construction management. The money you make, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) is made in the contracting side where there is also far more risk (read: liability).
mx2
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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REO73
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| mx2 wrote: | I want your job...
Well said BTW. One point I wanted to pick up on; there is a fundamental difference between strictly architecture and construction management. The money you make, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) is made in the contracting side where there is also far more risk (read: liability).
mx2 |
Construction project management certainly is in higher demand and generally does pay more and does contribute a bit to my higher salary but more importantly I work in a region (Southern California) where higher salaries are required by the cost of living. |
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mx2
millennium club
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1977
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Of course, just as in New York where starting salary is around 50K (give or take) but you can't rent place for less than $2k a month and that's for a crappy little box overlooking an alley. South Florida starting salary is around $25K (give or take) but rent is around $1k for a one bedroom apartment. It's the same for all professions and all regions. Good point.
I suppose my question really is in differentiating what it is that you do. Construction management is something most architects do not get involved in for one simple reason: liability. Besides, how do you have time to work on CD's if you are CM on other projects? It's a full time job isn't it? Do you contract with the subs or is there still a contractor on these projects? I worked on a CM job as the architectural PM (meaning I was the liaison between architect-of-record and CM and client)...and somehow noticed I was doing most of the CM's job. I got a taste of it...and CM has its value but it departs from architecture a bit too much for my liking. I'm just curious about your experience and view on this matter. It's obvious that you enjoy it...I'm sure the pay is one $mall factor. But if I may ask, what do you like the most about it?
mx2
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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